Just a quick note to any of you guys flying IFR into the phoenix area.
I just got back from a trip to phoenix from vegas, I had filed a
composit flgiht plan, VFR untill I was by phoenix then I would request
my IFR if it was needed since FSS reported overcast at 2700 and few at
600.

freezing level was 7000-8000, MEA was 9000 in some parts and 10,000
during other parts of route. I chose VFR the first part of the flight so
I could have the latitude to dodge clouds to prevent icing.

all went fine, I got handed off to phoenix approach, I was at 12,000 ft
on top of the layer, no way into phoenix except through that mess
either. So I asked phoenix for my IFR and he said I was cleared into
class B and to decend to 7000 and he would look for my clearence. I
start my decent, between some clouds and he comes back and says to turn
toward carefree if I want to pick up my IFR because he was to busy. no
one was talking except me.
then he told me to stay clear of class B. so here I am now down from my
safe altitude above the clouds, a nitwit controller, I zig zag between
some clouds and call him again, he says he cant see me on radar and to
turn towards carefree, so I figured I would follow the valley under some
clouds, then my wife says dont turn that way, that mountain is covered
by clouds, so I get back on the radio and tell the controller he got me
down here, I amnow stuck and I needed my clearence or I would be in
trouble. He finally said, ok, and gave it to me. man that guy ****ed me
off. there was another guy trying to do the same thing as me in a
cessna, right after I got my clearence, and the controller told him to
stay at 2500 ft and turn towards carefree because he was "saturated"
with IFR departures. Yet no one else was talking. then here I am in
these nasty clouds, outside temp about -2, he gives me to decend to
6000, then right after that screams at me traffic alert decend to 5000
....so I am in total IMC diving down to 5000 ft.. then he does not want
me to do the ILS, he tells me to decend to 2700 ft and to be prepared
for the visual. man what a crappy flight - and I didnt even tell you
about the 1500 fpm downdraft or when my engine started losing power.

that controller still has me ****ed off and its 2 days later.

> freezing level was 7000-8000
> [...]
> I start my decent, between some clouds

Between how much cloud? This could be a serious pilot error, or not a big deal

> so here I am now down from my
> safe altitude above the clouds
> [...]
> I amnow stuck and I needed my
> clearence or I would be in trouble.

.... which is why I ask, above.

> because he was too busy.
> noone was talking except me.

On that frequency. Controllers often work many frequencies, and do things
besides talk on the radio.

> then he does not want
> me to do the ILS, he tells me to
> decend to 2700 ft and to be
> prepared for the visual.

You can request the ILS. But if he's clearing you for a visual, then you can
probably complete the visual. Not always though... I got a visual into DXR
once, but was in some CB and needed a real approach. The controller asked what
I wanted, so I took the Loc 8.

> and I didnt even tell you
> about the 1500 fpm downdraft
> or when my engine started
> losing power.

OK controllers, admit it. You have secret radio control over the weather and
the engine. Now if you could only control the hobbs meter for me too!

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

Jeff wrote:
> Just a quick note to any of you guys flying IFR into the phoenix area.
> I just got back from a trip to phoenix from vegas, I had filed a
> composit flgiht plan, VFR untill I was by phoenix then I would request
> my IFR if it was needed since FSS reported overcast at 2700 and few at
> 600.
>
> freezing level was 7000-8000, MEA was 9000 in some parts and 10,000
> during other parts of route. I chose VFR the first part of the flight so
> I could have the latitude to dodge clouds to prevent icing.
>
> all went fine, I got handed off to phoenix approach, I was at 12,000 ft
> on top of the layer, no way into phoenix except through that mess
> either. So I asked phoenix for my IFR and he said I was cleared into
> class B and to decend to 7000 and he would look for my clearence. I
> start my decent, between some clouds and he comes back and says to turn
> toward carefree if I want to pick up my IFR because he was to busy. no
> one was talking except me.
> then he told me to stay clear of class B. so here I am now down from my
> safe altitude above the clouds, a nitwit controller, I zig zag between
> some clouds and call him again, he says he cant see me on radar and to
> turn towards carefree, so I figured I would follow the valley under some
> clouds, then my wife says dont turn that way, that mountain is covered
> by clouds, so I get back on the radio and tell the controller he got me
> down here, I amnow stuck and I needed my clearence or I would be in
> trouble. He finally said, ok, and gave it to me. man that guy ****ed me
> off. there was another guy trying to do the same thing as me in a
> cessna, right after I got my clearence, and the controller told him to
> stay at 2500 ft and turn towards carefree because he was "saturated"
> with IFR departures. Yet no one else was talking. then here I am in
> these nasty clouds, outside temp about -2, he gives me to decend to
> 6000, then right after that screams at me traffic alert decend to 5000
> ...so I am in total IMC diving down to 5000 ft.. then he does not want
> me to do the ILS, he tells me to decend to 2700 ft and to be prepared
> for the visual. man what a crappy flight - and I didnt even tell you
> about the 1500 fpm downdraft or when my engine started losing power.
>
> that controller still has me ****ed off and its 2 days later.

It is not unusual for a controller to work more than one frequency.
That fact that you didn't hear any other traffic, doesn't mean there
wasn't other traffic.


Matt

Teacherjh wrote:

>>because he was too busy.
>>noone was talking except me.
>
>
> On that frequency. Controllers often work many frequencies, and do things
> besides talk on the radio.

If you do not hear the controller talking then he is not busy, doesn't
matter how many freq's he has. Controllers do not switch transmitters
on and off to talk to different aircraft. What he may be doing off the
air is irrelavant. If he gets too busy he gets another body in there to
handle the landline.

there was room, I was following the clear area between clouds and it was taking me
away from where I wnated to go, but I expected to have my clearence any second as
usual.

from my flights into the phoenix area, and from talking to ABQ center, phoenix is
not very GA friendly. they tend to have a problem letting GA planes into their
airspace. There airspace is not that busy.

Teacherjh wrote:

> > freezing level was 7000-8000
> > [...]
> > I start my decent, between some clouds
>
> Between how much cloud? This could be a serious pilot error, or not a big deal
>
> > so here I am now down from my
> > safe altitude above the clouds
> > [...]
> > I amnow stuck and I needed my
> > clearence or I would be in trouble.
>
> ... which is why I ask, above.
>
> > because he was too busy.
> > noone was talking except me.
>
> On that frequency. Controllers often work many frequencies, and do things
> besides talk on the radio.
>
> > then he does not want
> > me to do the ILS, he tells me to
> > decend to 2700 ft and to be
> > prepared for the visual.
>
> You can request the ILS. But if he's clearing you for a visual, then you can
> probably complete the visual. Not always though... I got a visual into DXR
> once, but was in some CB and needed a real approach. The controller asked what
> I wanted, so I took the Loc 8.
>
> > and I didnt even tell you
> > about the 1500 fpm downdraft
> > or when my engine started
> > losing power.
>
> OK controllers, admit it. You have secret radio control over the weather and
> the engine. Now if you could only control the hobbs meter for me too!
>
> Jose
>
> --
> (for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

another main problem I had was him letting another plane get so close in IMC that
he had to give me a traffic alert. what happened to this seperation I was suppose
to be getting.

Teacherjh wrote:

> > freezing level was 7000-8000
> > [...]
> > I start my decent, between some clouds
>
> Between how much cloud? This could be a serious pilot error, or not a big deal
>
> > so here I am now down from my
> > safe altitude above the clouds
> > [...]
> > I amnow stuck and I needed my
> > clearence or I would be in trouble.
>
> ... which is why I ask, above.
>
> > because he was too busy.
> > noone was talking except me.
>
> On that frequency. Controllers often work many frequencies, and do things
> besides talk on the radio.
>
> > then he does not want
> > me to do the ILS, he tells me to
> > decend to 2700 ft and to be
> > prepared for the visual.
>
> You can request the ILS. But if he's clearing you for a visual, then you can
> probably complete the visual. Not always though... I got a visual into DXR
> once, but was in some CB and needed a real approach. The controller asked what
> I wanted, so I took the Loc 8.
>
> > and I didnt even tell you
> > about the 1500 fpm downdraft
> > or when my engine started
> > losing power.
>
> OK controllers, admit it. You have secret radio control over the weather and
> the engine. Now if you could only control the hobbs meter for me too!
>
> Jose
>
> --
> (for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

so what happens, do they close down all the airports inside the phoenix area
to GA aircraft because they are to busy with departures?
no was was up flying VFR, you wasnt getting in without being on instruments,
the number of planes they were working should have been lower then a normal
sunny day.
It still does not explain him almost letting someone run into me. I fly into
southern california all the time, those are some busy controllers. but it runs
smooth, they have never told me or anyone else I have heard, that they couldnt
work them and they have never given me a traffic alert.

"Matthew S. Whiting" wrote:

> Jeff wrote:
> > Just a quick note to any of you guys flying IFR into the phoenix area.
> > I just got back from a trip to phoenix from vegas, I had filed a
> > composit flgiht plan, VFR untill I was by phoenix then I would request
> > my IFR if it was needed since FSS reported overcast at 2700 and few at
> > 600.
> >
> > freezing level was 7000-8000, MEA was 9000 in some parts and 10,000
> > during other parts of route. I chose VFR the first part of the flight so
> > I could have the latitude to dodge clouds to prevent icing.
> >
> > all went fine, I got handed off to phoenix approach, I was at 12,000 ft
> > on top of the layer, no way into phoenix except through that mess
> > either. So I asked phoenix for my IFR and he said I was cleared into
> > class B and to decend to 7000 and he would look for my clearence. I
> > start my decent, between some clouds and he comes back and says to turn
> > toward carefree if I want to pick up my IFR because he was to busy. no
> > one was talking except me.
> > then he told me to stay clear of class B. so here I am now down from my
> > safe altitude above the clouds, a nitwit controller, I zig zag between
> > some clouds and call him again, he says he cant see me on radar and to
> > turn towards carefree, so I figured I would follow the valley under some
> > clouds, then my wife says dont turn that way, that mountain is covered
> > by clouds, so I get back on the radio and tell the controller he got me
> > down here, I amnow stuck and I needed my clearence or I would be in
> > trouble. He finally said, ok, and gave it to me. man that guy ****ed me
> > off. there was another guy trying to do the same thing as me in a
> > cessna, right after I got my clearence, and the controller told him to
> > stay at 2500 ft and turn towards carefree because he was "saturated"
> > with IFR departures. Yet no one else was talking. then here I am in
> > these nasty clouds, outside temp about -2, he gives me to decend to
> > 6000, then right after that screams at me traffic alert decend to 5000
> > ...so I am in total IMC diving down to 5000 ft.. then he does not want
> > me to do the ILS, he tells me to decend to 2700 ft and to be prepared
> > for the visual. man what a crappy flight - and I didnt even tell you
> > about the 1500 fpm downdraft or when my engine started losing power.
> >
> > that controller still has me ****ed off and its 2 days later.
>
> It is not unusual for a controller to work more than one frequency.
> That fact that you didn't hear any other traffic, doesn't mean there
> wasn't other traffic.
>
> Matt

Jeff:

I fly into Phoenix all the time - I've never run into unfriendly
controllers. Busy, yes; unfriendly, no. I have been vectored all over the
place, but I assume that was for traffic or arrival/departure corridors or
some logical reason. Maybe you just ran into a bad apple. By the way, I find
it helpful to request a particular arrival when I first contact them. That
way usually either I get it, or I get something reasonably close.

Regarding getting the pop up IFR, I once had a controller in Denver refuse
me a popup. Had to contact FSS to get the clearance. Kind of a pain, but one
more item in the log book.

Michael



"Jeff" > wrote in message
...
> there was room, I was following the clear area between clouds and it was
taking me
> away from where I wnated to go, but I expected to have my clearence any
second as
> usual.
>
> from my flights into the phoenix area, and from talking to ABQ center,
phoenix is
> not very GA friendly. they tend to have a problem letting GA planes into
their
> airspace. There airspace is not that busy.
>
> Teacherjh wrote:
>
> > > freezing level was 7000-8000
> > > [...]
> > > I start my decent, between some clouds
> >
> > Between how much cloud? This could be a serious pilot error, or not a
big deal
> >
> > > so here I am now down from my
> > > safe altitude above the clouds
> > > [...]
> > > I amnow stuck and I needed my
> > > clearence or I would be in trouble.
> >
> > ... which is why I ask, above.
> >
> > > because he was too busy.
> > > noone was talking except me.
> >
> > On that frequency. Controllers often work many frequencies, and do
things
> > besides talk on the radio.
> >
> > > then he does not want
> > > me to do the ILS, he tells me to
> > > decend to 2700 ft and to be
> > > prepared for the visual.
> >
> > You can request the ILS. But if he's clearing you for a visual, then
you can
> > probably complete the visual. Not always though... I got a visual into
DXR
> > once, but was in some CB and needed a real approach. The controller
asked what
> > I wanted, so I took the Loc 8.
> >
> > > and I didnt even tell you
> > > about the 1500 fpm downdraft
> > > or when my engine started
> > > losing power.
> >
> > OK controllers, admit it. You have secret radio control over the
weather and
> > the engine. Now if you could only control the hobbs meter for me too!
> >
> > Jose
> >
> > --
> > (for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)
>

Jeff > wrote in message >...
> all went fine, I got handed off to phoenix approach, I was at 12,000 ft
> on top of the layer, no way into phoenix except through that mess
> either. So I asked phoenix for my IFR and he said I was cleared into
> class B and to decend to 7000 and he would look for my clearence. I
> start my decent, between some clouds and he comes back and says to turn
> toward carefree if I want to pick up my IFR because he was to busy. no
> one was talking except me.

Jeff, with regard to "no one was talking except me". Be aware
that a controller can be handling 2 or even 3 frequencies, and
also depending upon how his airspace is set up he may need to be
doing a lot of coordination by phone.

So he might not be talking to anyone else on your freq, but he
still could be busier than a 1 armed paper hanger.

We've been bitten ourselves where we did something (took off,
descended) on the idea that we would be able to get our clearance
promptly then for one or another reason we couldn't and we didn't
like where we wound up. My bottom line now is, if I'm not comfortable
with flying VFR, I want to stay where I'm comfortable until I get
that IFR clearance. It doesn't sound like you were comfortable
descending and dodging clouds/Class B airspace and you only did it
because the controller told you he would "look for your clearance"
and you thought that meant you'd be cleared promptly.

Re the "look for your clearance" thing, where did you file the
IFR flight plan to originate? If you had the IFR flight
plan commencing in someone else's airspace (say, just outside or
just above the airspace the TRACON controls), the controller you
are talking to may not have a strip on you or any info on you.
He will need to figure out whose airspace the flight plan originated
in and call them up and say "depart this guy for me, would you?"
then and only then the info will come through. That can be
low on the priority list if he's busy. You can help yourself
there by making absolutely sure your flight plan actually originates
in the airspace of the controller you're talking to (this can be
harder to figure out than you might think), or, if there seems to be
some problem offer to call FSS in the air and refile.

I'm not familiar with the Phoenix airspace or area so I don't
have much other comment. Maybe he was a bad controller -- or
maybe he was just a busy guy doing too much without enough
help and with a bunch of screwball pilots who weren't doing
much to help him out.

FWIW,
Sydney

ya he was so busy he almost let someone fly into me.

no matter how you dice it, that should not have happened. Phoenix does not get much IMC, its
sunny about 350 days a year there.

Snowbird wrote:

> Jeff > wrote in message >...
> > all went fine, I got handed off to phoenix approach, I was at 12,000 ft
> > on top of the layer, no way into phoenix except through that mess
> > either. So I asked phoenix for my IFR and he said I was cleared into
> > class B and to decend to 7000 and he would look for my clearence. I
> > start my decent, between some clouds and he comes back and says to turn
> > toward carefree if I want to pick up my IFR because he was to busy. no
> > one was talking except me.
>
> Jeff, with regard to "no one was talking except me". Be aware
> that a controller can be handling 2 or even 3 frequencies, and
> also depending upon how his airspace is set up he may need to be
> doing a lot of coordination by phone.
>
> So he might not be talking to anyone else on your freq, but he
> still could be busier than a 1 armed paper hanger.
>
> We've been bitten ourselves where we did something (took off,
> descended) on the idea that we would be able to get our clearance
> promptly then for one or another reason we couldn't and we didn't
> like where we wound up. My bottom line now is, if I'm not comfortable
> with flying VFR, I want to stay where I'm comfortable until I get
> that IFR clearance. It doesn't sound like you were comfortable
> descending and dodging clouds/Class B airspace and you only did it
> because the controller told you he would "look for your clearance"
> and you thought that meant you'd be cleared promptly.
>
> Re the "look for your clearance" thing, where did you file the
> IFR flight plan to originate? If you had the IFR flight
> plan commencing in someone else's airspace (say, just outside or
> just above the airspace the TRACON controls), the controller you
> are talking to may not have a strip on you or any info on you.
> He will need to figure out whose airspace the flight plan originated
> in and call them up and say "depart this guy for me, would you?"
> then and only then the info will come through. That can be
> low on the priority list if he's busy. You can help yourself
> there by making absolutely sure your flight plan actually originates
> in the airspace of the controller you're talking to (this can be
> harder to figure out than you might think), or, if there seems to be
> some problem offer to call FSS in the air and refile.
>
> I'm not familiar with the Phoenix airspace or area so I don't
> have much other comment. Maybe he was a bad controller -- or
> maybe he was just a busy guy doing too much without enough
> help and with a bunch of screwball pilots who weren't doing
> much to help him out.
>
> FWIW,
> Sydney

it wasn't a popup, I had it on file thru FSS. ABQ before the hand off asked me
if I wanted it then or if I wanted it from phoenix, I told him I was ok at that
time and that I would get it from phoenix for my decent into williams gateway.
Boy thats a mistake I wont make again.

when I fly into phoenix VFR / flight following, ABQ has told me (and others)
that phoenix will not accept the handoff's from them and I can try calling
phoenix myself for class B transition.

I flew out of casa grande one night last summer IFR, the guy changed my
clearence 5 times in about 10 minutes, the last time he damn near wanted me to
fly to yuma before turning toawards blyth VOR. after getting handed off to
center, I asked for direct to boulder city and got it. As we were flying along
for about 45 minutes my wife saw the city lights off the right side, she goes
"is that still phoenix?"
I said yup... she then said, are they going to let us go home tonight ?

I am going to chalk this up as a learning experience and make sure it does not
happen again by getting anything I need from ABQ, but it still does not sit well
with me that the controller gave me a traffic alert in IMC.

Michael 182 wrote:

> Jeff:
>
> I fly into Phoenix all the time - I've never run into unfriendly
> controllers. Busy, yes; unfriendly, no. I have been vectored all over the
> place, but I assume that was for traffic or arrival/departure corridors or
> some logical reason. Maybe you just ran into a bad apple. By the way, I find
> it helpful to request a particular arrival when I first contact them. That
> way usually either I get it, or I get something reasonably close.
>
> Regarding getting the pop up IFR, I once had a controller in Denver refuse
> me a popup. Had to contact FSS to get the clearance. Kind of a pain, but one
> more item in the log book.
>
> Michael
>
> "Jeff" > wrote in message
> ...
> > there was room, I was following the clear area between clouds and it was
> taking me
> > away from where I wnated to go, but I expected to have my clearence any
> second as
> > usual.
> >
> > from my flights into the phoenix area, and from talking to ABQ center,
> phoenix is
> > not very GA friendly. they tend to have a problem letting GA planes into
> their
> > airspace. There airspace is not that busy.
> >
> > Teacherjh wrote:
> >
> > > > freezing level was 7000-8000
> > > > [...]
> > > > I start my decent, between some clouds
> > >
> > > Between how much cloud? This could be a serious pilot error, or not a
> big deal
> > >
> > > > so here I am now down from my
> > > > safe altitude above the clouds
> > > > [...]
> > > > I amnow stuck and I needed my
> > > > clearence or I would be in trouble.
> > >
> > > ... which is why I ask, above.
> > >
> > > > because he was too busy.
> > > > noone was talking except me.
> > >
> > > On that frequency. Controllers often work many frequencies, and do
> things
> > > besides talk on the radio.
> > >
> > > > then he does not want
> > > > me to do the ILS, he tells me to
> > > > decend to 2700 ft and to be
> > > > prepared for the visual.
> > >
> > > You can request the ILS. But if he's clearing you for a visual, then
> you can
> > > probably complete the visual. Not always though... I got a visual into
> DXR
> > > once, but was in some CB and needed a real approach. The controller
> asked what
> > > I wanted, so I took the Loc 8.
> > >
> > > > and I didnt even tell you
> > > > about the 1500 fpm downdraft
> > > > or when my engine started
> > > > losing power.
> > >
> > > OK controllers, admit it. You have secret radio control over the
> weather and
> > > the engine. Now if you could only control the hobbs meter for me too!
> > >
> > > Jose
> > >
> > > --
> > > (for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)
> >

he may have been working multiple freqs. Sounds like you are the one with
the problem, not him. Don't blame him for anything - next time file IFR the
whole trip.


"Jeff" > wrote in message
...
> Just a quick note to any of you guys flying IFR into the phoenix area.
> I just got back from a trip to phoenix from vegas, I had filed a
> composit flgiht plan, VFR untill I was by phoenix then I would request
> my IFR if it was needed since FSS reported overcast at 2700 and few at
> 600.
>
> freezing level was 7000-8000, MEA was 9000 in some parts and 10,000
> during other parts of route. I chose VFR the first part of the flight so
> I could have the latitude to dodge clouds to prevent icing.
>
> all went fine, I got handed off to phoenix approach, I was at 12,000 ft
> on top of the layer, no way into phoenix except through that mess
> either. So I asked phoenix for my IFR and he said I was cleared into
> class B and to decend to 7000 and he would look for my clearence. I
> start my decent, between some clouds and he comes back and says to turn
> toward carefree if I want to pick up my IFR because he was to busy. no
> one was talking except me.
> then he told me to stay clear of class B. so here I am now down from my
> safe altitude above the clouds, a nitwit controller, I zig zag between
> some clouds and call him again, he says he cant see me on radar and to
> turn towards carefree, so I figured I would follow the valley under some
> clouds, then my wife says dont turn that way, that mountain is covered
> by clouds, so I get back on the radio and tell the controller he got me
> down here, I amnow stuck and I needed my clearence or I would be in
> trouble. He finally said, ok, and gave it to me. man that guy ****ed me
> off. there was another guy trying to do the same thing as me in a
> cessna, right after I got my clearence, and the controller told him to
> stay at 2500 ft and turn towards carefree because he was "saturated"
> with IFR departures. Yet no one else was talking. then here I am in
> these nasty clouds, outside temp about -2, he gives me to decend to
> 6000, then right after that screams at me traffic alert decend to 5000
> ...so I am in total IMC diving down to 5000 ft.. then he does not want
> me to do the ILS, he tells me to decend to 2700 ft and to be prepared
> for the visual. man what a crappy flight - and I didnt even tell you
> about the 1500 fpm downdraft or when my engine started losing power.
>
> that controller still has me ****ed off and its 2 days later.
>
>
>

Jeff,

A couple things.. I think out of fairness to the controller the only
thing which you can say is that he was not busy on your freqency. It
is possible that he was busy on another freqency which you were unable
to hear, or he could have been busy coordinating your clearance, or
maybe even coordinating departures, so you would not create a problem
for them. You just never know without seeing the other side.

The thing to remember here is that you were VFR, and asked to pickup
your IFR clearance in the air. That by definition gives you less
priority in the system compared to other already IFR aircraft. Maybe
the lesson here is not to pickup your clearance in a terminal area,
but rather do it from the center prior to entering the TRACON's
airspace. I can assure you that the controller wasn't blaming the
delay on saturation for no reason.. there was obviously saturation
either in his sector, or in a sector which was ahead, and/or below
you.

Doug

Jeff > wrote in message >...
> Just a quick note to any of you guys flying IFR into the phoenix area.
> I just got back from a trip to phoenix from vegas, I had filed a
> composit flgiht plan, VFR untill I was by phoenix then I would request
> my IFR if it was needed since FSS reported overcast at 2700 and few at
> 600.
>
> freezing level was 7000-8000, MEA was 9000 in some parts and 10,000
> during other parts of route. I chose VFR the first part of the flight so
> I could have the latitude to dodge clouds to prevent icing.
>
> all went fine, I got handed off to phoenix approach, I was at 12,000 ft
> on top of the layer, no way into phoenix except through that mess
> either. So I asked phoenix for my IFR and he said I was cleared into
> class B and to decend to 7000 and he would look for my clearence. I
> start my decent, between some clouds and he comes back and says to turn
> toward carefree if I want to pick up my IFR because he was to busy. no
> one was talking except me.
> then he told me to stay clear of class B. so here I am now down from my
> safe altitude above the clouds, a nitwit controller, I zig zag between
> some clouds and call him again, he says he cant see me on radar and to
> turn towards carefree, so I figured I would follow the valley under some
> clouds, then my wife says dont turn that way, that mountain is covered
> by clouds, so I get back on the radio and tell the controller he got me
> down here, I amnow stuck and I needed my clearence or I would be in
> trouble. He finally said, ok, and gave it to me. man that guy ****ed me
> off. there was another guy trying to do the same thing as me in a
> cessna, right after I got my clearence, and the controller told him to
> stay at 2500 ft and turn towards carefree because he was "saturated"
> with IFR departures. Yet no one else was talking. then here I am in
> these nasty clouds, outside temp about -2, he gives me to decend to
> 6000, then right after that screams at me traffic alert decend to 5000
> ...so I am in total IMC diving down to 5000 ft.. then he does not want
> me to do the ILS, he tells me to decend to 2700 ft and to be prepared
> for the visual. man what a crappy flight - and I didnt even tell you
> about the 1500 fpm downdraft or when my engine started losing power.
>
> that controller still has me ****ed off and its 2 days later.

If you are not prepared to fly in "nasty clouds" then you have no business
filing, requesting or flying IFR.

Mike
MU-2


"Jeff" > wrote in message
...
> Just a quick note to any of you guys flying IFR into the phoenix area.
> I just got back from a trip to phoenix from vegas, I had filed a
> composit flgiht plan, VFR untill I was by phoenix then I would request
> my IFR if it was needed since FSS reported overcast at 2700 and few at
> 600.
>
> freezing level was 7000-8000, MEA was 9000 in some parts and 10,000
> during other parts of route. I chose VFR the first part of the flight so
> I could have the latitude to dodge clouds to prevent icing.
>
> all went fine, I got handed off to phoenix approach, I was at 12,000 ft
> on top of the layer, no way into phoenix except through that mess
> either. So I asked phoenix for my IFR and he said I was cleared into
> class B and to decend to 7000 and he would look for my clearence. I
> start my decent, between some clouds and he comes back and says to turn
> toward carefree if I want to pick up my IFR because he was to busy. no
> one was talking except me.
> then he told me to stay clear of class B. so here I am now down from my
> safe altitude above the clouds, a nitwit controller, I zig zag between
> some clouds and call him again, he says he cant see me on radar and to
> turn towards carefree, so I figured I would follow the valley under some
> clouds, then my wife says dont turn that way, that mountain is covered
> by clouds, so I get back on the radio and tell the controller he got me
> down here, I amnow stuck and I needed my clearence or I would be in
> trouble. He finally said, ok, and gave it to me. man that guy ****ed me
> off. there was another guy trying to do the same thing as me in a
> cessna, right after I got my clearence, and the controller told him to
> stay at 2500 ft and turn towards carefree because he was "saturated"
> with IFR departures. Yet no one else was talking. then here I am in
> these nasty clouds, outside temp about -2, he gives me to decend to
> 6000, then right after that screams at me traffic alert decend to 5000
> ...so I am in total IMC diving down to 5000 ft.. then he does not want
> me to do the ILS, he tells me to decend to 2700 ft and to be prepared
> for the visual. man what a crappy flight - and I didnt even tell you
> about the 1500 fpm downdraft or when my engine started losing power.
>
> that controller still has me ****ed off and its 2 days later.
>
>
>

Jeff > wrote:

> no matter how you dice it, that should not have happened. Phoenix does
> not get much IMC, its sunny about 350 days a year there.
>

This is the key to the whole situation. PHX weather is so good, the Tracon
folks just don't have to deal with it very often. Jeff's experience is
fairly common around this area. Any clouds in the sky and they freak out
and can't handle anybody. We often talk about how they ought to rotate
people through Socal to learn how to really accommodate IFR GA operations.
The flexible, impromptu clearances and tower enroute operations over there
are totally unheard of in PHX.

Mike

those people out at SoCal are very good in my opinion.
I always pick up my clearance when going into the LA basin at the HEC VOR
since that's where the ziggy3 arrival begins.

Mike Adams wrote:

> Jeff > wrote:
>
> > no matter how you dice it, that should not have happened. Phoenix does
> > not get much IMC, its sunny about 350 days a year there.
> >
>
> This is the key to the whole situation. PHX weather is so good, the Tracon
> folks just don't have to deal with it very often. Jeff's experience is
> fairly common around this area. Any clouds in the sky and they freak out
> and can't handle anybody. We often talk about how they ought to rotate
> people through Socal to learn how to really accommodate IFR GA operations.
> The flexible, impromptu clearances and tower enroute operations over there
> are totally unheard of in PHX.
>
> Mike

dont blame him for anything?
who was controlling that other plane?
I sure was not.

there is no reason to have to file IFR the entire trip.

Richard Hertz wrote:

> he may have been working multiple freqs. Sounds like you are the one with
> the problem, not him. Don't blame him for anything - next time file IFR the
> whole trip.
>
> "Jeff" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Just a quick note to any of you guys flying IFR into the phoenix area.
> > I just got back from a trip to phoenix from vegas, I had filed a
> > composit flgiht plan, VFR untill I was by phoenix then I would request
> > my IFR if it was needed since FSS reported overcast at 2700 and few at
> > 600.
> >
> > freezing level was 7000-8000, MEA was 9000 in some parts and 10,000
> > during other parts of route. I chose VFR the first part of the flight so
> > I could have the latitude to dodge clouds to prevent icing.
> >
> > all went fine, I got handed off to phoenix approach, I was at 12,000 ft
> > on top of the layer, no way into phoenix except through that mess
> > either. So I asked phoenix for my IFR and he said I was cleared into
> > class B and to decend to 7000 and he would look for my clearence. I
> > start my decent, between some clouds and he comes back and says to turn
> > toward carefree if I want to pick up my IFR because he was to busy. no
> > one was talking except me.
> > then he told me to stay clear of class B. so here I am now down from my
> > safe altitude above the clouds, a nitwit controller, I zig zag between
> > some clouds and call him again, he says he cant see me on radar and to
> > turn towards carefree, so I figured I would follow the valley under some
> > clouds, then my wife says dont turn that way, that mountain is covered
> > by clouds, so I get back on the radio and tell the controller he got me
> > down here, I amnow stuck and I needed my clearence or I would be in
> > trouble. He finally said, ok, and gave it to me. man that guy ****ed me
> > off. there was another guy trying to do the same thing as me in a
> > cessna, right after I got my clearence, and the controller told him to
> > stay at 2500 ft and turn towards carefree because he was "saturated"
> > with IFR departures. Yet no one else was talking. then here I am in
> > these nasty clouds, outside temp about -2, he gives me to decend to
> > 6000, then right after that screams at me traffic alert decend to 5000
> > ...so I am in total IMC diving down to 5000 ft.. then he does not want
> > me to do the ILS, he tells me to decend to 2700 ft and to be prepared
> > for the visual. man what a crappy flight - and I didnt even tell you
> > about the 1500 fpm downdraft or when my engine started losing power.
> >
> > that controller still has me ****ed off and its 2 days later.
> >
> >
> >

ya your right, thats why I received the traffic alert, the air was so saturated with traffic
that I was just in the way of that other plane.

Doug Rinks wrote:

> Jeff,
>
> I can assure you that the controller wasn't blaming the
> delay on saturation for no reason.. there was obviously saturation
> either in his sector, or in a sector which was ahead, and/or below
> you.
>
> Doug
>
> Jeff > wrote in message >...
> > Just a quick note to any of you guys flying IFR into the phoenix area.
> > I just got back from a trip to phoenix from vegas, I had filed a
> > composit flgiht plan, VFR untill I was by phoenix then I would request
> > my IFR if it was needed since FSS reported overcast at 2700 and few at
> > 600.
> >
> > freezing level was 7000-8000, MEA was 9000 in some parts and 10,000
> > during other parts of route. I chose VFR the first part of the flight so
> > I could have the latitude to dodge clouds to prevent icing.
> >
> > all went fine, I got handed off to phoenix approach, I was at 12,000 ft
> > on top of the layer, no way into phoenix except through that mess
> > either. So I asked phoenix for my IFR and he said I was cleared into
> > class B and to decend to 7000 and he would look for my clearence. I
> > start my decent, between some clouds and he comes back and says to turn
> > toward carefree if I want to pick up my IFR because he was to busy. no
> > one was talking except me.
> > then he told me to stay clear of class B. so here I am now down from my
> > safe altitude above the clouds, a nitwit controller, I zig zag between
> > some clouds and call him again, he says he cant see me on radar and to
> > turn towards carefree, so I figured I would follow the valley under some
> > clouds, then my wife says dont turn that way, that mountain is covered
> > by clouds, so I get back on the radio and tell the controller he got me
> > down here, I amnow stuck and I needed my clearence or I would be in
> > trouble. He finally said, ok, and gave it to me. man that guy ****ed me
> > off. there was another guy trying to do the same thing as me in a
> > cessna, right after I got my clearence, and the controller told him to
> > stay at 2500 ft and turn towards carefree because he was "saturated"
> > with IFR departures. Yet no one else was talking. then here I am in
> > these nasty clouds, outside temp about -2, he gives me to decend to
> > 6000, then right after that screams at me traffic alert decend to 5000
> > ...so I am in total IMC diving down to 5000 ft.. then he does not want
> > me to do the ILS, he tells me to decend to 2700 ft and to be prepared
> > for the visual. man what a crappy flight - and I didnt even tell you
> > about the 1500 fpm downdraft or when my engine started losing power.
> >
> > that controller still has me ****ed off and its 2 days later.

and how was I not prepared ?


Mike Rapoport wrote:

> If you are not prepared to fly in "nasty clouds" then you have no business
> filing, requesting or flying IFR.
>
> Mike
> MU-2
>
> "Jeff" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Just a quick note to any of you guys flying IFR into the phoenix area.
> > I just got back from a trip to phoenix from vegas, I had filed a
> > composit flgiht plan, VFR untill I was by phoenix then I would request
> > my IFR if it was needed since FSS reported overcast at 2700 and few at
> > 600.
> >
> > freezing level was 7000-8000, MEA was 9000 in some parts and 10,000
> > during other parts of route. I chose VFR the first part of the flight so
> > I could have the latitude to dodge clouds to prevent icing.
> >
> > all went fine, I got handed off to phoenix approach, I was at 12,000 ft
> > on top of the layer, no way into phoenix except through that mess
> > either. So I asked phoenix for my IFR and he said I was cleared into
> > class B and to decend to 7000 and he would look for my clearence. I
> > start my decent, between some clouds and he comes back and says to turn
> > toward carefree if I want to pick up my IFR because he was to busy. no
> > one was talking except me.
> > then he told me to stay clear of class B. so here I am now down from my
> > safe altitude above the clouds, a nitwit controller, I zig zag between
> > some clouds and call him again, he says he cant see me on radar and to
> > turn towards carefree, so I figured I would follow the valley under some
> > clouds, then my wife says dont turn that way, that mountain is covered
> > by clouds, so I get back on the radio and tell the controller he got me
> > down here, I amnow stuck and I needed my clearence or I would be in
> > trouble. He finally said, ok, and gave it to me. man that guy ****ed me
> > off. there was another guy trying to do the same thing as me in a
> > cessna, right after I got my clearence, and the controller told him to
> > stay at 2500 ft and turn towards carefree because he was "saturated"
> > with IFR departures. Yet no one else was talking. then here I am in
> > these nasty clouds, outside temp about -2, he gives me to decend to
> > 6000, then right after that screams at me traffic alert decend to 5000
> > ...so I am in total IMC diving down to 5000 ft.. then he does not want
> > me to do the ILS, he tells me to decend to 2700 ft and to be prepared
> > for the visual. man what a crappy flight - and I didnt even tell you
> > about the 1500 fpm downdraft or when my engine started losing power.
> >
> > that controller still has me ****ed off and its 2 days later.
> >
> >
> >

Jeff wrote:
> ya he was so busy he almost let someone fly into me.
>
> no matter how you dice it, that should not have happened. Phoenix does not get much IMC, its
> sunny about 350 days a year there.

That is likely part of the problem. A controller who only handles IFR
traffic in IMC 5 days a year will be about as proficient as a pilot who
only encounters IMC 5 days a year in his IFR flying.


Matt

Mike Rapoport wrote:
> If you are not prepared to fly in "nasty clouds" then you have no business
> filing, requesting or flying IFR.

Depends on your definition of nasty. I consider t-storm, funnel clouds,
and clouds with temps below freezing to be nasty and I won't fly into
them, at least not intentionally. I hardly think that means I have no
business flying IFR.

Not sure what the OPs definition of nasty is, but that is mine.


Matt

"Michael 182" > wrote in message
news:NeR2c.135424$Xp.582131@attbi_s54...
> Jeff:
>
> I fly into Phoenix all the time - I've never run into unfriendly
> controllers. Busy, yes; unfriendly, no. I have been vectored all over the
> place, but I assume that was for traffic or arrival/departure corridors or
> some logical reason.

Phoenix has nine control towered airports under it's Class B airspace
including Luke AFB and Williams-Gateway (formerly Williams AFB) which is the
cargo hub for a 400 miles radius. PHX, during the winter months, is about
the sixth busiest airport in the country. Damn right it's busy

"Jeff" > wrote in message
...
> ya he was so busy he almost let someone fly into me.
>
> no matter how you dice it, that should not have happened. Phoenix does not
get much IMC, its
> sunny about 350 days a year there.
>
Those 15 cloudy days we have allocated each year must have been used up this
past two weeks. Rained four days of the past week and a half and crappy
overcast most of the rest of the time.

Friday was 57, Saturday was 62, Sunday was 82 and we're supposed to hit 90
today.

"Mike Adams" > wrote in message
news:toT2c.13913$BA.3649@fed1read03...
> Jeff > wrote:
>
> > no matter how you dice it, that should not have happened. Phoenix does
> > not get much IMC, its sunny about 350 days a year there.
> >
>
> This is the key to the whole situation. PHX weather is so good, the Tracon
> folks just don't have to deal with it very often.

Even makes the driver nuts....or more so than usual.

Jeff wrote:

> it wasn't a popup, I had it on file thru FSS. ABQ before the hand off asked me
> if I wanted it then or if I wanted it from phoenix, I told him I was ok at that
> time and that I would get it from phoenix for my decent into williams gateway.
> Boy thats a mistake I wont make again.

You've answered your own question, sort of. On a composite flight plan the system
is designed for you to go to the IFR portion with center or FSS. Approach control
can take a pop-up easier than trying to activate a composite IFR flight plan.

I think you're being way too hard on the controller in view of your attempt to push
the system. Had you been on an en route IFR clearance with ABQ Center you would not
have placed yourself into never-never land.

Jeff wrote:

> another main problem I had was him letting another plane get so close in IMC that
> he had to give me a traffic alert. what happened to this seperation I was suppose
> to be getting.

You pushed him and he probably tried to fit you in, which resulted in the traffic
aleart. Have you ever visited the TRACON, plugged in, and asked about the handoff
procedures from center to approach control for IFR arrivals?

Jeff wrote:

> those people out at SoCal are very good in my opinion.
> I always pick up my clearance when going into the LA basin at the HEC VOR
> since that's where the ziggy3 arrival begins.

If you do that at HEC you are not doing it directly with SoCal TRACON. I
presume you are doing it with LA Center or FSS.

"Teacherjh" > wrote in message
...
>
> On that frequency. Controllers often work many frequencies,
> and do things besides talk on the radio.
>

When controllers are working many frequencies they typically broadcast on
all of them simultaneously. You won't hear other aircraft, but you will
hear the controller.

"Matthew S. Whiting" > wrote in message
...
>
> It is not unusual for a controller to work more than one frequency.
> That fact that you didn't hear any other traffic, doesn't mean there
> wasn't other traffic.
>

The fact that he didn't hear the controller transmit to other aircraft
suggests there was no other traffic.

"Snowbird" > wrote in message
om...
>
> Jeff, with regard to "no one was talking except me". Be aware
> that a controller can be handling 2 or even 3 frequencies, and
> also depending upon how his airspace is set up he may need to be
> doing a lot of coordination by phone.
>
> So he might not be talking to anyone else on your freq, but he
> still could be busier than a 1 armed paper hanger.
>

If he's got aircraft on other frequencies you'll hear his transmissions to
those other aircraft on your frequency, you just won't hear the other
aircraft.

Fine, but while flying above the nasty icing clouds, don't ask for IFR to
descend to your destination in busy class B airspace!

Mike
MU-2

"Matthew S. Whiting" > wrote in message
...
> Mike Rapoport wrote:
> > If you are not prepared to fly in "nasty clouds" then you have no
business
> > filing, requesting or flying IFR.
>
> Depends on your definition of nasty. I consider t-storm, funnel clouds,
> and clouds with temps below freezing to be nasty and I won't fly into
> them, at least not intentionally. I hardly think that means I have no
> business flying IFR.
>
> Not sure what the OPs definition of nasty is, but that is mine.
>
>
> Matt
>

Maybe prepared is not the right word but you make a point of saying that
you:flew most of the trip VFR to aviod ice and yet you filed IFR into class
B airspace and complained about flying in clouds. You accepted the descent
to 7000 (amongst the clouds) while VFR. So basically you seem to be
complaining about not getting your clearance right away, having to fly IFR
in clouds and not getting the ILS in VMC. You also complain that he made
you descend for traffic, separating traffic is the controllers primary job.

If you are not comfortable flying in icing clouds then don't file IFR in
class B airspace when the temp is below freezing. Most of your issues where
of your own making and you should accept responsibilty for them instead of
blaming someone else. It is odd that the controller said that he was busy
on a quiet freq.

Mike
MU-2


"Jeff" > wrote in message
...
> and how was I not prepared ?
>
>
> Mike Rapoport wrote:
>
> > If you are not prepared to fly in "nasty clouds" then you have no
business
> > filing, requesting or flying IFR.
> >
> > Mike
> > MU-2
> >
> > "Jeff" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Just a quick note to any of you guys flying IFR into the phoenix area.
> > > I just got back from a trip to phoenix from vegas, I had filed a
> > > composit flgiht plan, VFR untill I was by phoenix then I would request
> > > my IFR if it was needed since FSS reported overcast at 2700 and few at
> > > 600.
> > >
> > > freezing level was 7000-8000, MEA was 9000 in some parts and 10,000
> > > during other parts of route. I chose VFR the first part of the flight
so
> > > I could have the latitude to dodge clouds to prevent icing.
> > >
> > > all went fine, I got handed off to phoenix approach, I was at 12,000
ft
> > > on top of the layer, no way into phoenix except through that mess
> > > either. So I asked phoenix for my IFR and he said I was cleared into
> > > class B and to decend to 7000 and he would look for my clearence. I
> > > start my decent, between some clouds and he comes back and says to
turn
> > > toward carefree if I want to pick up my IFR because he was to busy.
no
> > > one was talking except me.
> > > then he told me to stay clear of class B. so here I am now down from
my
> > > safe altitude above the clouds, a nitwit controller, I zig zag between
> > > some clouds and call him again, he says he cant see me on radar and to
> > > turn towards carefree, so I figured I would follow the valley under
some
> > > clouds, then my wife says dont turn that way, that mountain is covered
> > > by clouds, so I get back on the radio and tell the controller he got
me
> > > down here, I amnow stuck and I needed my clearence or I would be in
> > > trouble. He finally said, ok, and gave it to me. man that guy ****ed
me
> > > off. there was another guy trying to do the same thing as me in a
> > > cessna, right after I got my clearence, and the controller told him to
> > > stay at 2500 ft and turn towards carefree because he was "saturated"
> > > with IFR departures. Yet no one else was talking. then here I am in
> > > these nasty clouds, outside temp about -2, he gives me to decend to
> > > 6000, then right after that screams at me traffic alert decend to 5000
> > > ...so I am in total IMC diving down to 5000 ft.. then he does not
want
> > > me to do the ILS, he tells me to decend to 2700 ft and to be prepared
> > > for the visual. man what a crappy flight - and I didnt even tell you
> > > about the 1500 fpm downdraft or when my engine started losing power.
> > >
> > > that controller still has me ****ed off and its 2 days later.
> > >
> > >
> > >
>

Jeff-

Perhaps the other aircraft was VFR? If it was, the controller is under
no obligation to separate you. Their job is to separate IFR from IFR
aircraft, and on a "time available" basis separate IFR from VFR, and
VFR from VFR. To me it sounds like the controller did everything
right, and you did (most) everything wrong.

I urge you to look back on Jeff's posts... everytime it is a problem
that he encountered that was SOMEONE ELSES fault. The guy can clearly
do no wrong.

Doug

Jeff > wrote in message >...
> ya he was so busy he almost let someone fly into me.
>

Doug Rinks wrote:
> Jeff,
>
> A couple things.. I think out of fairness to the controller the only
> thing which you can say is that he was not busy on your freqency. It
> is possible that he was busy on another freqency which you were unable
> to hear,

No, it's not possible. If you cannot hear the controller then he is not
saying anything.

Not exactly.. Phoenix gets monsoons nearly every night during the
summer. That surely counts as IMC.

Doug

Jeff > wrote in message >...
> ya he was so busy he almost let someone fly into me.
>
> no matter how you dice it, that should not have happened. Phoenix does not get much IMC, its
> sunny about 350 days a year there.
>

"Doug Rinks" > wrote in message
om...
>
> Perhaps the other aircraft was VFR? If it was, the controller is under
> no obligation to separate you. Their job is to separate IFR from IFR
> aircraft, and on a "time available" basis separate IFR from VFR, and
> VFR from VFR. To me it sounds like the controller did everything
> right, and you did (most) everything wrong.
>

In Class B airspace the controller must separate IFR from VFR and VFR from
VFR, and "time available" has nothing to do with it.

> and how was I not prepared ?
>
>
> Mike Rapoport wrote:
>
> > If you are not prepared to fly in "nasty clouds" then you have no business
> > filing, requesting or flying IFR.
> >
> > Mike
> > MU-2


I think Mike meant you should never be cutting it so close that some
sort of an ATC screwup makes it uncomfortable, or even dangerous. I am
not saying that's what you did (flying a single in the Pacific NW, I
know the on-top/slamdunk game well), but he does have a valid point,
even if it sounds smug from the flightdeck of a deiced turboprop ;-)

I would only add that in my (admitedly limited) experience, it helps
to be forthright with ATC about why you want something, if milling
around in icy tops is a concern, let them know.

Martin

To expand on Martin's correct interpretation of what I meant (but perhaps
didn't express well), you shouldn't be dependent on ATC being able to
accommodate your every wish, particularly in class B airspace. If you
really can't fly in clouds because of icing, then remain VFR. It isn't a
"screwup" on ATC's part that they can't let a pilot fly any heading and
altitude that he wishes, it is the pilots"screwup" that he is dependent on
them doing so.

Mike
MU-2


"Martin Kosina" > wrote in message
om...
> > and how was I not prepared ?
> >
> >
> > Mike Rapoport wrote:
> >
> > > If you are not prepared to fly in "nasty clouds" then you have no
business
> > > filing, requesting or flying IFR.
> > >
> > > Mike
> > > MU-2
>
>
> I think Mike meant you should never be cutting it so close that some
> sort of an ATC screwup makes it uncomfortable, or even dangerous. I am
> not saying that's what you did (flying a single in the Pacific NW, I
> know the on-top/slamdunk game well), but he does have a valid point,
> even if it sounds smug from the flightdeck of a deiced turboprop ;-)
>
> I would only add that in my (admitedly limited) experience, it helps
> to be forthright with ATC about why you want something, if milling
> around in icy tops is a concern, let them know.
>
> Martin

when did I complain about flying in the clouds?
who complained about not getting the ILS in VMC ?
who said I was not comfortable with flying in the clouds?

I think you misread some things.


Mike Rapoport wrote:

> Maybe prepared is not the right word but you make a point of saying that
> you:flew most of the trip VFR to aviod ice and yet you filed IFR into class
> B airspace and complained about flying in clouds. You accepted the descent
> to 7000 (amongst the clouds) while VFR. So basically you seem to be
> complaining about not getting your clearance right away, having to fly IFR
> in clouds and not getting the ILS in VMC. You also complain that he made
> you descend for traffic, separating traffic is the controllers primary job.
>
> If you are not comfortable flying in icing clouds then don't file IFR in
> class B airspace when the temp is below freezing. Most of your issues where
> of your own making and you should accept responsibilty for them instead of
> blaming someone else. It is odd that the controller said that he was busy
> on a quiet freq.
>
> Mike
> MU-2
>
> "Jeff" > wrote in message
> ...
> > and how was I not prepared ?
> >
> >
> > Mike Rapoport wrote:
> >
> > > If you are not prepared to fly in "nasty clouds" then you have no
> business
> > > filing, requesting or flying IFR.
> > >
> > > Mike
> > > MU-2
> > >
> > > "Jeff" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > Just a quick note to any of you guys flying IFR into the phoenix area.
> > > > I just got back from a trip to phoenix from vegas, I had filed a
> > > > composit flgiht plan, VFR untill I was by phoenix then I would request
> > > > my IFR if it was needed since FSS reported overcast at 2700 and few at
> > > > 600.
> > > >
> > > > freezing level was 7000-8000, MEA was 9000 in some parts and 10,000
> > > > during other parts of route. I chose VFR the first part of the flight
> so
> > > > I could have the latitude to dodge clouds to prevent icing.
> > > >
> > > > all went fine, I got handed off to phoenix approach, I was at 12,000
> ft
> > > > on top of the layer, no way into phoenix except through that mess
> > > > either. So I asked phoenix for my IFR and he said I was cleared into
> > > > class B and to decend to 7000 and he would look for my clearence. I
> > > > start my decent, between some clouds and he comes back and says to
> turn
> > > > toward carefree if I want to pick up my IFR because he was to busy.
> no
> > > > one was talking except me.
> > > > then he told me to stay clear of class B. so here I am now down from
> my
> > > > safe altitude above the clouds, a nitwit controller, I zig zag between
> > > > some clouds and call him again, he says he cant see me on radar and to
> > > > turn towards carefree, so I figured I would follow the valley under
> some
> > > > clouds, then my wife says dont turn that way, that mountain is covered
> > > > by clouds, so I get back on the radio and tell the controller he got
> me
> > > > down here, I amnow stuck and I needed my clearence or I would be in
> > > > trouble. He finally said, ok, and gave it to me. man that guy ****ed
> me
> > > > off. there was another guy trying to do the same thing as me in a
> > > > cessna, right after I got my clearence, and the controller told him to
> > > > stay at 2500 ft and turn towards carefree because he was "saturated"
> > > > with IFR departures. Yet no one else was talking. then here I am in
> > > > these nasty clouds, outside temp about -2, he gives me to decend to
> > > > 6000, then right after that screams at me traffic alert decend to 5000
> > > > ...so I am in total IMC diving down to 5000 ft.. then he does not
> want
> > > > me to do the ILS, he tells me to decend to 2700 ft and to be prepared
> > > > for the visual. man what a crappy flight - and I didnt even tell you
> > > > about the 1500 fpm downdraft or when my engine started losing power.
> > > >
> > > > that controller still has me ****ed off and its 2 days later.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> >

if he was VFR he was in the wrong place.
perhaps he was VFR and just decided to exit the area on his own which is a possibility.

what was it I did wrong again? I dont recall and do not recall you sitting next to me with a
note pad?

Doug Rinks wrote:

> Jeff-
>
> Perhaps the other aircraft was VFR? If it was, the controller is under
> no obligation to separate you. Their job is to separate IFR from IFR
> aircraft, and on a "time available" basis separate IFR from VFR, and
> VFR from VFR. To me it sounds like the controller did everything
> right, and you did (most) everything wrong.
>
> I urge you to look back on Jeff's posts... everytime it is a problem
> that he encountered that was SOMEONE ELSES fault. The guy can clearly
> do no wrong.
>
> Doug
>
> Jeff > wrote in message >...
> > ya he was so busy he almost let someone fly into me.
> >

but its high clouds for the most part, you dont get the clouds covering the mountains like you had
this last week or so.

Doug Rinks wrote:

> Not exactly.. Phoenix gets monsoons nearly every night during the
> summer. That surely counts as IMC.
>
> Doug
>
> Jeff > wrote in message >...
> > ya he was so busy he almost let someone fly into me.
> >
> > no matter how you dice it, that should not have happened. Phoenix does not get much IMC, its
> > sunny about 350 days a year there.
> >

Did you write the following?

"I chose VFR the first part of the flight so I could have the latitude to
dodge clouds to prevent icing."

"so here I am now down from my safe altitude above the clouds"

"then here I am in these nasty clouds, outside temp about -2"

"then he does not want me to do the ILS, he tells me to decend to 2700 ft
and to be prepared for the visual. man what a crappy flight"

Mike
MU-2



"Jeff" > wrote in message
...
> when did I complain about flying in the clouds?

> who complained about not getting the ILS in VMC

> who said I was not comfortable with flying in the clouds?
>
> I think you misread some things.
>
>
> Mike Rapoport wrote:
>
> > Maybe prepared is not the right word but you make a point of saying that
> > you:flew most of the trip VFR to aviod ice and yet you filed IFR into
class
> > B airspace and complained about flying in clouds. You accepted the
descent
> > to 7000 (amongst the clouds) while VFR. So basically you seem to be
> > complaining about not getting your clearance right away, having to fly
IFR
> > in clouds and not getting the ILS in VMC. You also complain that he
made
> > you descend for traffic, separating traffic is the controllers primary
job.
> >
> > If you are not comfortable flying in icing clouds then don't file IFR in
> > class B airspace when the temp is below freezing. Most of your issues
where
> > of your own making and you should accept responsibilty for them instead
of
> > blaming someone else. It is odd that the controller said that he was
busy
> > on a quiet freq.
> >
> > Mike
> > MU-2
> >
> > "Jeff" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > and how was I not prepared ?
> > >
> > >
> > > Mike Rapoport wrote:
> > >
> > > > If you are not prepared to fly in "nasty clouds" then you have no
> > business
> > > > filing, requesting or flying IFR.
> > > >
> > > > Mike
> > > > MU-2
> > > >
> > > > "Jeff" > wrote in message
> > > > ...
> > > > > Just a quick note to any of you guys flying IFR into the phoenix
area.
> > > > > I just got back from a trip to phoenix from vegas, I had filed a
> > > > > composit flgiht plan, VFR untill I was by phoenix then I would
request
> > > > > my IFR if it was needed since FSS reported overcast at 2700 and
few at
> > > > > 600.
> > > > >
> > > > > freezing level was 7000-8000, MEA was 9000 in some parts and
10,000
> > > > > during other parts of route. I chose VFR the first part of the
flight
> > so
> > > > > I could have the latitude to dodge clouds to prevent icing.
> > > > >
> > > > > all went fine, I got handed off to phoenix approach, I was at
12,000
> > ft
> > > > > on top of the layer, no way into phoenix except through that mess
> > > > > either. So I asked phoenix for my IFR and he said I was cleared
into
> > > > > class B and to decend to 7000 and he would look for my clearence.
I
> > > > > start my decent, between some clouds and he comes back and says to
> > turn
> > > > > toward carefree if I want to pick up my IFR because he was to
busy.
> > no
> > > > > one was talking except me.
> > > > > then he told me to stay clear of class B. so here I am now down
from
> > my
> > > > > safe altitude above the clouds, a nitwit controller, I zig zag
between
> > > > > some clouds and call him again, he says he cant see me on radar
and to
> > > > > turn towards carefree, so I figured I would follow the valley
under
> > some
> > > > > clouds, then my wife says dont turn that way, that mountain is
covered
> > > > > by clouds, so I get back on the radio and tell the controller he
got
> > me
> > > > > down here, I amnow stuck and I needed my clearence or I would be
in
> > > > > trouble. He finally said, ok, and gave it to me. man that guy
****ed
> > me
> > > > > off. there was another guy trying to do the same thing as me in a
> > > > > cessna, right after I got my clearence, and the controller told
him to
> > > > > stay at 2500 ft and turn towards carefree because he was
"saturated"
> > > > > with IFR departures. Yet no one else was talking. then here I am
in
> > > > > these nasty clouds, outside temp about -2, he gives me to decend
to
> > > > > 6000, then right after that screams at me traffic alert decend to
5000
> > > > > ...so I am in total IMC diving down to 5000 ft.. then he does not
> > want
> > > > > me to do the ILS, he tells me to decend to 2700 ft and to be
prepared
> > > > > for the visual. man what a crappy flight - and I didnt even tell
you
> > > > > about the 1500 fpm downdraft or when my engine started losing
power.
> > > > >
> > > > > that controller still has me ****ed off and its 2 days later.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
>

I had no problems when he gave me my clearance, was it nasty, yes it was, but it
was not uncomfortable nor did I ever feel like I was in danger, the problems I had
that were weather related only lasted long enough for me to take corrective
action.

We dont see much weather like that and when we do not many people fly in it
because of the chance of icing. Did I have a good plan yes I did, did I have
options, yes I did, could I have gotten out and went to one of my 2 alternates,
yes I could have. Did I want to ..no, my car reservation was at the airport I
intended to land at and all I needed was my clearance so I could go through the
clouds and get to my destination.
Could the controller have been a little bit better, knowing the weather was what
it was and since I had a flight plan on file and gave me the clearance..yes he
could have.

Martin Kosina wrote:

> > and how was I not prepared ?
> >
> >
> > Mike Rapoport wrote:
> >
> > > If you are not prepared to fly in "nasty clouds" then you have no business
> > > filing, requesting or flying IFR.
> > >
> > > Mike
> > > MU-2
>
> I think Mike meant you should never be cutting it so close that some
> sort of an ATC screwup makes it uncomfortable, or even dangerous. I am
> not saying that's what you did (flying a single in the Pacific NW, I
> know the on-top/slamdunk game well), but he does have a valid point,
> even if it sounds smug from the flightdeck of a deiced turboprop ;-)
>
> I would only add that in my (admitedly limited) experience, it helps
> to be forthright with ATC about why you want something, if milling
> around in icy tops is a concern, let them know.
>
> Martin

I was not dependent on them granting my every wish nor was I dependent on
anything except being able to land.
I guess my problem was decending in the first place when he said he was
looking for my clearance and told to do so assuming he would pull it up.

He damn sure pulled it up quick when I made my last call to him, he didnt even
need to ask my tail number again or any other information, so it appears to me
had had access to it the entire time and just did not want to mess with it.


Mike Rapoport wrote:

> To expand on Martin's correct interpretation of what I meant (but perhaps
> didn't express well), you shouldn't be dependent on ATC being able to
> accommodate your every wish, particularly in class B airspace. If you
> really can't fly in clouds because of icing, then remain VFR. It isn't a
> "screwup" on ATC's part that they can't let a pilot fly any heading and
> altitude that he wishes, it is the pilots"screwup" that he is dependent on
> them doing so.
>
> Mike
> MU-2
>
> "Martin Kosina" > wrote in message
> om...
> > > and how was I not prepared ?
> > >
> > >
> > > Mike Rapoport wrote:
> > >
> > > > If you are not prepared to fly in "nasty clouds" then you have no
> business
> > > > filing, requesting or flying IFR.
> > > >
> > > > Mike
> > > > MU-2
> >
> >
> > I think Mike meant you should never be cutting it so close that some
> > sort of an ATC screwup makes it uncomfortable, or even dangerous. I am
> > not saying that's what you did (flying a single in the Pacific NW, I
> > know the on-top/slamdunk game well), but he does have a valid point,
> > even if it sounds smug from the flightdeck of a deiced turboprop ;-)
> >
> > I would only add that in my (admitedly limited) experience, it helps
> > to be forthright with ATC about why you want something, if milling
> > around in icy tops is a concern, let them know.
> >
> > Martin

and how do you know it was busy ?
were you sitting next to the controller - or is this just another assumption
on your part?


Mike Rapoport wrote:

> Fine, but while flying above the nasty icing clouds, don't ask for IFR to
> descend to your destination in busy class B airspace!
>
> Mike
> MU-2
>
> "Matthew S. Whiting" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Mike Rapoport wrote:
> > > If you are not prepared to fly in "nasty clouds" then you have no
> business
> > > filing, requesting or flying IFR.
> >
> > Depends on your definition of nasty. I consider t-storm, funnel clouds,
> > and clouds with temps below freezing to be nasty and I won't fly into
> > them, at least not intentionally. I hardly think that means I have no
> > business flying IFR.
> >
> > Not sure what the OPs definition of nasty is, but that is mine.
> >
> >
> > Matt
> >

the traffic alert came about 20 minutes after the clearance.
you fishing to look for the controller to be 100% right which we all know is not always
the case.


wrote:

> Jeff wrote:
>
> > another main problem I had was him letting another plane get so close in IMC that
> > he had to give me a traffic alert. what happened to this seperation I was suppose
> > to be getting.
>
> You pushed him and he probably tried to fit you in, which resulted in the traffic
> aleart. Have you ever visited the TRACON, plugged in, and asked about the handoff
> procedures from center to approach control for IFR arrivals?

Yeah, I was sitting right next to him when you called. Visiting the ATC
center ya know? Saw the whole thing. He wanted to finish the game of
solitaire that he was playing on the radar scope and didn't want to be
bothered issuing a clearance, so he made up the whole part about being busy.
There really were't any airliners departing PHX that night, no military or
other GA traffic either.


Mike
MU-2

"Jeff" > wrote in message
...
> and how do you know it was busy ?
> were you sitting next to the controller - or is this just another
assumption
> on your part?
>
>
> Mike Rapoport wrote:
>
> > Fine, but while flying above the nasty icing clouds, don't ask for IFR
to
> > descend to your destination in busy class B airspace!
> >
> > Mike
> > MU-2
> >
> > "Matthew S. Whiting" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Mike Rapoport wrote:
> > > > If you are not prepared to fly in "nasty clouds" then you have no
> > business
> > > > filing, requesting or flying IFR.
> > >
> > > Depends on your definition of nasty. I consider t-storm, funnel
clouds,
> > > and clouds with temps below freezing to be nasty and I won't fly into
> > > them, at least not intentionally. I hardly think that means I have no
> > > business flying IFR.
> > >
> > > Not sure what the OPs definition of nasty is, but that is mine.
> > >
> > >
> > > Matt
> > >
>

(Doug Rinks) writes:
>
> A couple things.. I think out of fairness to the controller the only
> thing which you can say is that he was not busy on your freqency. It
> is possible that he was busy on another freqency which you were unable
> to hear, or he could have been busy coordinating your clearance, or
> maybe even coordinating departures, so you would not create a problem
> for them. You just never know without seeing the other side.
>
> The thing to remember here is that you were VFR, and asked to pickup
> your IFR clearance in the air. That by definition gives you less
> priority in the system compared to other already IFR aircraft. Maybe
> the lesson here is not to pickup your clearance in a terminal area,
> but rather do it from the center prior to entering the TRACON's
> airspace. I can assure you that the controller wasn't blaming the
> delay on saturation for no reason.. there was obviously saturation
> either in his sector, or in a sector which was ahead, and/or below
> you.

I once tried to get a clearance from PVD approach on a
popup from Newport on a CAVU night. There wasn't an
airplane in the sky except us and we were told there'd
be a 45 minute delay. And PVD isn't that busy at the
worst of times...

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message et>...
> "Snowbird" > wrote in message
> om...
> > Jeff, with regard to "no one was talking except me". Be aware
> > that a controller can be handling 2 or even 3 frequencies, and
> > also depending upon how his airspace is set up he may need to be
> > doing a lot of coordination by phone.

> > So he might not be talking to anyone else on your freq, but he
> > still could be busier than a 1 armed paper hanger.

> If he's got aircraft on other frequencies you'll hear his transmissions to
> those other aircraft on your frequency, you just won't hear the other
> aircraft.

Is that always true? I know I hear this pattern sometimes, but I thought
it wasn't necessarily true.

In any event, if he's spending time on the 'phone coordinating, we
won't hear that.

Cheers,
Sydney

>Is that always true? I know I hear this pattern sometimes, but I thought
>it wasn't necessarily true.

Not i my experience. I have actually heard the controller's transmission stop
midway thru as he was talking to an airplane on another freq....switched to the
freq he was talking to the other airplane on and hear him finish his
transmission.
Most of the time they will broadcast on all the freqs they are working, but not
always.


-John
*You are nothing until you have flown a Douglas, Lockheed, Grumman or North
American*

Newps > wrote in message news:<mNQ2c.499756$I06.5381546@attbi_s01>...

> If you do not hear the controller talking then he is not busy, doesn't
> matter how many freq's he has. Controllers do not switch transmitters
> on and off to talk to different aircraft. What he may be doing off the
> air is irrelavant. If he gets too busy he gets another body in there to
> handle the landline.

If he has another body to haul in there.

This is kind of funny to me. I remember some time ago I posted
about an incident where a Big Iron captain got P/O'ed at a not-
busy controller for not pointing me out as traffic (I was VFR
with flight following and couldn't have hit him with a JATO assist).

I seem to recall that several ATCS on the groups including SPM and
(I think) you, jumped all over me pointing out that just because I
didn't hear the controller talking a lot on that freq., doesn't mean
he isn't busy, he could be doing a lot of coordination so forth so on.

OK, so I took it to heart, don't assume the controller isn't busy
just because you don't hear non-stop chatter.

Now it seems y'all are saying to the contrary. If we don't hear
y'all talking non-stop, you aren't busy. Roger.

Another day, another viewpoint.

Cheers,
Sydney

"Snowbird" > wrote in message
om...
>
> Is that always true? I know I hear this pattern sometimes, but I thought
> it wasn't necessarily true.
>

Always true? I don't know, but if it's not it's certainly the norm. I try
to stay from absolutes because there are almost always exceptions. Note
that in another response I said "When controllers are working many
frequencies they typically broadcast on all of them simultaneously."

I recall working with a former Denver Center controller nearly twenty years
ago who described working a sector with multiple transceiver sites using the
same frequency. He had to select which site to use depending on the
location of the aircraft.


>
> In any event, if he's spending time on the 'phone coordinating, we
> won't hear that.
>

No, but if you don't hear him broadcasting to any aircraft he's probably got
nothing to coordinate.

"Snowbird" > wrote in message
om...
>
> This is kind of funny to me. I remember some time ago I posted
> about an incident where a Big Iron captain got P/O'ed at a not-
> busy controller for not pointing me out as traffic (I was VFR
> with flight following and couldn't have hit him with a JATO assist).
>
> I seem to recall that several ATCS on the groups including SPM and
> (I think) you, jumped all over me pointing out that just because I
> didn't hear the controller talking a lot on that freq., doesn't mean
> he isn't busy, he could be doing a lot of coordination so forth so on.
>

Odd, I don't recall anything like that.

"Everett M. Greene" > wrote in message
...
> I once tried to get a clearance from PVD approach on a
> popup from Newport on a CAVU night. There wasn't an
> airplane in the sky except us and we were told there'd
> be a 45 minute delay. And PVD isn't that busy at the
> worst of times...

[Old Adage] "Am I up here so you can be down there, or are you down there so
I can be up here?"

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message =
ink.net...
>=20
>=20
>=20
> I recall working with a former Denver Center controller nearly twenty =
years
> ago who described working a sector with multiple transceiver sites =
using the
> same frequency. He had to select which site to use depending on the
> location of the aircraft.
>=20
>=20
I've run into that with Centers covering mountainous areas, too.
The first time, I thought I was losing coverage because I could barely
hear the controller talking to other aircraft on the frequency.
When I asked if he could copy me, he replied loud and clear to my area,
and explained what I'd just experienced was exactly as Steven described.

I wouldn't try to guess whether Phoenix Tracon might have a similar =
setup.
---JRC---

"John R. Copeland" > wrote in message
...
>
> I've run into that with Centers covering mountainous areas, too.
> The first time, I thought I was losing coverage because I could barely
> hear the controller talking to other aircraft on the frequency.
> When I asked if he could copy me, he replied loud and clear to my area,
> and explained what I'd just experienced was exactly as Steven
> described.
>
> I wouldn't try to guess whether Phoenix Tracon might have a similar
> setup.
>

Very unlikely. The Center sectors that do this tend to be very large and
have relatively little traffic.

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> "Teacherjh" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>On that frequency. Controllers often work many frequencies,
>>and do things besides talk on the radio.
>>
>
>
> When controllers are working many frequencies they typically broadcast on
> all of them simultaneously. You won't hear other aircraft, but you will
> hear the controller.
>
>

Is this true for all positions? I think our local controllers (sleepy
old ELM) sometimes work tower and ground at the same time and you don't
hear the ground communications on tower and vice versa.


Matt

Mike Rapoport wrote:
> Fine, but while flying above the nasty icing clouds, don't ask for IFR to
> descend to your destination in busy class B airspace!

I won't because I almost always file IFR the entire trip. Just seems
easier in many respects and I don't mind talking to the friendly (mostly
anyway) ATC folks. :-)


Matt

Newps wrote:
>
>
> Doug Rinks wrote:
>
>> Jeff,
>> A couple things.. I think out of fairness to the controller the only
>> thing which you can say is that he was not busy on your freqency. It
>> is possible that he was busy on another freqency which you were unable
>> to hear,
>
>
> No, it's not possible. If you cannot hear the controller then he is not
> saying anything.
>

Not even on a landline to another facility?

Matt

Snowbird wrote:
> Newps > wrote in message news:<mNQ2c.499756$I06.5381546@attbi_s01>...
>
>
>>If you do not hear the controller talking then he is not busy, doesn't
>>matter how many freq's he has. Controllers do not switch transmitters
>>on and off to talk to different aircraft. What he may be doing off the
>>air is irrelavant. If he gets too busy he gets another body in there to
>>handle the landline.
>
>
> If he has another body to haul in there.
>
> This is kind of funny to me. I remember some time ago I posted
> about an incident where a Big Iron captain got P/O'ed at a not-
> busy controller for not pointing me out as traffic (I was VFR
> with flight following and couldn't have hit him with a JATO assist).
>
> I seem to recall that several ATCS on the groups including SPM and
> (I think) you, jumped all over me pointing out that just because I
> didn't hear the controller talking a lot on that freq., doesn't mean
> he isn't busy, he could be doing a lot of coordination so forth so on.
>
> OK, so I took it to heart, don't assume the controller isn't busy
> just because you don't hear non-stop chatter.
>
> Now it seems y'all are saying to the contrary. If we don't hear
> y'all talking non-stop, you aren't busy. Roger.
>
> Another day, another viewpoint.
>
> Cheers,
> Sydney

You don't have to recall, you can use Google!

Matt

Jeff wrote:

> but its high clouds for the most part, you dont get the clouds covering the mountains like you had
> this last week or so.

Oh, please excuse me, as an airline pilot who operated into PHX at all times during the year for 27
years.

that does not say I am unconfortable flying in the clouds. It only means I was
trying to avoid the ones at the freezing levels. thats all it means. nothing
more and nothing less.
your trying to make something out of nothing with out actually being there.


Mike Rapoport wrote:

> Did you write the following?
>
> "I chose VFR the first part of the flight so I could have the latitude to
> dodge clouds to prevent icing."
>
> "so here I am now down from my safe altitude above the clouds"
>
> "then here I am in these nasty clouds, outside temp about -2"
>
> "then he does not want me to do the ILS, he tells me to decend to 2700 ft
> and to be prepared for the visual. man what a crappy flight"
>
> Mike
> MU-2
>
> "Jeff" > wrote in message
> ...
> > when did I complain about flying in the clouds?
>
> > who complained about not getting the ILS in VMC
>
> > who said I was not comfortable with flying in the clouds?
> >
> > I think you misread some things.
> >
> >
> > Mike Rapoport wrote:
> >
> > > Maybe prepared is not the right word but you make a point of saying that
> > > you:flew most of the trip VFR to aviod ice and yet you filed IFR into
> class
> > > B airspace and complained about flying in clouds. You accepted the
> descent
> > > to 7000 (amongst the clouds) while VFR. So basically you seem to be
> > > complaining about not getting your clearance right away, having to fly
> IFR
> > > in clouds and not getting the ILS in VMC. You also complain that he
> made
> > > you descend for traffic, separating traffic is the controllers primary
> job.
> > >
> > > If you are not comfortable flying in icing clouds then don't file IFR in
> > > class B airspace when the temp is below freezing. Most of your issues
> where
> > > of your own making and you should accept responsibilty for them instead
> of
> > > blaming someone else. It is odd that the controller said that he was
> busy
> > > on a quiet freq.
> > >
> > > Mike
> > > MU-2
> > >
> > > "Jeff" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > and how was I not prepared ?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Mike Rapoport wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > If you are not prepared to fly in "nasty clouds" then you have no
> > > business
> > > > > filing, requesting or flying IFR.
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike
> > > > > MU-2
> > > > >
> > > > > "Jeff" > wrote in message
> > > > > ...
> > > > > > Just a quick note to any of you guys flying IFR into the phoenix
> area.
> > > > > > I just got back from a trip to phoenix from vegas, I had filed a
> > > > > > composit flgiht plan, VFR untill I was by phoenix then I would
> request
> > > > > > my IFR if it was needed since FSS reported overcast at 2700 and
> few at
> > > > > > 600.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > freezing level was 7000-8000, MEA was 9000 in some parts and
> 10,000
> > > > > > during other parts of route. I chose VFR the first part of the
> flight
> > > so
> > > > > > I could have the latitude to dodge clouds to prevent icing.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > all went fine, I got handed off to phoenix approach, I was at
> 12,000
> > > ft
> > > > > > on top of the layer, no way into phoenix except through that mess
> > > > > > either. So I asked phoenix for my IFR and he said I was cleared
> into
> > > > > > class B and to decend to 7000 and he would look for my clearence.
> I
> > > > > > start my decent, between some clouds and he comes back and says to
> > > turn
> > > > > > toward carefree if I want to pick up my IFR because he was to
> busy.
> > > no
> > > > > > one was talking except me.
> > > > > > then he told me to stay clear of class B. so here I am now down
> from
> > > my
> > > > > > safe altitude above the clouds, a nitwit controller, I zig zag
> between
> > > > > > some clouds and call him again, he says he cant see me on radar
> and to
> > > > > > turn towards carefree, so I figured I would follow the valley
> under
> > > some
> > > > > > clouds, then my wife says dont turn that way, that mountain is
> covered
> > > > > > by clouds, so I get back on the radio and tell the controller he
> got
> > > me
> > > > > > down here, I amnow stuck and I needed my clearence or I would be
> in
> > > > > > trouble. He finally said, ok, and gave it to me. man that guy
> ****ed
> > > me
> > > > > > off. there was another guy trying to do the same thing as me in a
> > > > > > cessna, right after I got my clearence, and the controller told
> him to
> > > > > > stay at 2500 ft and turn towards carefree because he was
> "saturated"
> > > > > > with IFR departures. Yet no one else was talking. then here I am
> in
> > > > > > these nasty clouds, outside temp about -2, he gives me to decend
> to
> > > > > > 6000, then right after that screams at me traffic alert decend to
> 5000
> > > > > > ...so I am in total IMC diving down to 5000 ft.. then he does not
> > > want
> > > > > > me to do the ILS, he tells me to decend to 2700 ft and to be
> prepared
> > > > > > for the visual. man what a crappy flight - and I didnt even tell
> you
> > > > > > about the 1500 fpm downdraft or when my engine started losing
> power.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > that controller still has me ****ed off and its 2 days later.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> >

>
> your trying to make something out of nothing with out actually being there.

I believe that's "you're" you meant to write, not "your."

By the way, where's your answer about the superior service from SoCal TRACON with
IFR pick-ups over the DAG/HEC area?

I have received IFR requests from LAS and from SoCal, I have received a IFR
departures from long beach, riverside and chino. Each time it was from the
tower or CD, not through FSS.

I dont know if its up to the controller or not on how they process IFR
requests, but this was not a pop up, he had my flight plan.
In hind site, I know now not to expect to be able to do this in the phoenix
area, and to get any clearance I need going into phoenix from ABQ.

"Everett M. Greene" wrote:

> (Doug Rinks) writes:
> >
> > A couple things.. I think out of fairness to the controller the only
> > thing which you can say is that he was not busy on your freqency. It
> > is possible that he was busy on another freqency which you were unable
> > to hear, or he could have been busy coordinating your clearance, or
> > maybe even coordinating departures, so you would not create a problem
> > for them. You just never know without seeing the other side.
> >
> > The thing to remember here is that you were VFR, and asked to pickup
> > your IFR clearance in the air. That by definition gives you less
> > priority in the system compared to other already IFR aircraft. Maybe
> > the lesson here is not to pickup your clearance in a terminal area,
> > but rather do it from the center prior to entering the TRACON's
> > airspace. I can assure you that the controller wasn't blaming the
> > delay on saturation for no reason.. there was obviously saturation
> > either in his sector, or in a sector which was ahead, and/or below
> > you.
>
> I once tried to get a clearance from PVD approach on a
> popup from Newport on a CAVU night. There wasn't an
> airplane in the sky except us and we were told there'd
> be a 45 minute delay. And PVD isn't that busy at the
> worst of times...

"Matthew S. Whiting" > wrote in message
...
> Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> > "Teacherjh" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >>On that frequency. Controllers often work many frequencies,
> >>and do things besides talk on the radio.
> >>
> >
> >
> > When controllers are working many frequencies they typically broadcast
on
> > all of them simultaneously. You won't hear other aircraft, but you will
> > hear the controller.
> >
> >
>
> Is this true for all positions? I think our local controllers (sleepy
> old ELM) sometimes work tower and ground at the same time and you don't
> hear the ground communications on tower and vice versa.
>

I don't know about in a tower cab, but when positions (ie-sectors) are
combined within radar facilities, the frequencies (transmitters and
receivers) are routed to whatever position gets the airspace. Thus, the
controller can hear on all freq's assigned to his airspace, and only has to
key his own mic to transmit. His transmissions are broadcast on all
frequencies he is working even though other stations can only hear the voice
traffic on their discrete freq. And I'm sure there could be non VSCS
exceptions in the wide open spaces of ARTCC's like ZAN, ZLC, ZDV, but surely
not in a tiny little piece of airspace that is a Tracon like Phoenix. (not
saying they ain't busy, just that Tracons don't usually cover much
territory....)

Chip, ZTL

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "Matthew S. Whiting" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > It is not unusual for a controller to work more than one frequency.
> > That fact that you didn't hear any other traffic, doesn't mean there
> > wasn't other traffic.
> >
>
> The fact that he didn't hear the controller transmit to other aircraft
> suggests there was no other traffic.
>

That's what I picked up on too. Of course, with no other traffic in IMC, a
traffic alert on a pair of IFR's seems a bit odd. After all, if he wasn't
busy...

Chip, ZTL

one bad thing about filing IFR here is that you have to go around all the
MOA's, ABQ told me that if I wanted to get my clearance from them I would have
to turn towards drake and get out of the MOA. picking up your IFR when you need
it allows you to fly through the MOA's and if they are not active, the
restricted area's also. Flying IFR, I would have got peach springs, drake then
phoenix. The worst of the weather was in that direction, the better weather was
the other direction. this was according to FSS. But they also said skies were
clear all the way to the edge of phoenix. I found out that was wrong.

"Matthew S. Whiting" wrote:

> Mike Rapoport wrote:
> > Fine, but while flying above the nasty icing clouds, don't ask for IFR to
> > descend to your destination in busy class B airspace!
>
> I won't because I almost always file IFR the entire trip. Just seems
> easier in many respects and I don't mind talking to the friendly (mostly
> anyway) ATC folks. :-)
>
> Matt

actually there was a RJ departing, I saw him pop up over the clouds, there was
a 172 at 2000 ft wanting 5000 but was told to turn towards carefree or stay VFR,
his choice and there was a archer shooting approaches into IWA, 4 navy planes
departed IWA to the south 30 minutes after I landed and oh ya, the guy who made
me have to dive to 5000 because the airspace was so congestested.

I am not saying any controller in class B airspace is not busy, I am sure they
are.
but so busy to the point where they cannot handle any more arrivals, even a slow
airplane like mine.

I have a pretty good idea how to do this flying stuff. But as I said, I will
plan my flights into phoenix differently the next time and get any clearance I
need from ABQ.




Mike Rapoport wrote:

> Yeah, I was sitting right next to him when you called. Visiting the ATC
> center ya know? Saw the whole thing. He wanted to finish the game of
> solitaire that he was playing on the radar scope and didn't want to be
> bothered issuing a clearance, so he made up the whole part about being busy.
> There really were't any airliners departing PHX that night, no military or
> other GA traffic either.
>
> Mike
> MU-2
>
> "Jeff" > wrote in message
> ...
> > and how do you know it was busy ?
> > were you sitting next to the controller - or is this just another
> assumption
> > on your part?
> >
> >
> > Mike Rapoport wrote:
> >
> > > Fine, but while flying above the nasty icing clouds, don't ask for IFR
> to
> > > descend to your destination in busy class B airspace!
> > >
> > > Mike
> > > MU-2
> > >
> > > "Matthew S. Whiting" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > Mike Rapoport wrote:
> > > > > If you are not prepared to fly in "nasty clouds" then you have no
> > > business
> > > > > filing, requesting or flying IFR.
> > > >
> > > > Depends on your definition of nasty. I consider t-storm, funnel
> clouds,
> > > > and clouds with temps below freezing to be nasty and I won't fly into
> > > > them, at least not intentionally. I hardly think that means I have no
> > > > business flying IFR.
> > > >
> > > > Not sure what the OPs definition of nasty is, but that is mine.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Matt
> > > >
> >

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote:

> I recall working with a former Denver Center controller nearly twenty
> years ago who described working a sector with multiple transceiver
> sites using the same frequency. He had to select which site to use
> depending on the location of the aircraft.
>

I've experienced that very situation also, in Denver and ABQ airspace. It
got so confusing one time, that the controller had to make a broadcast to
explain it to all us VFR flight following types, that he had multiple
transmitters on the same frequency, and not to worry if you don't hear
every transmission. What I've always wondered, is why do they bother? Are
they just trying to save a little electricity? It seems like this switching
of transmitters on and off is just extra workload for them with no
particular advantage. No one else is using the frequency in that area
except him. What am I missing?

Mike

In article t>,
"Mike Rapoport" > wrote:

> If you are not prepared to fly in "nasty clouds" then you have no business
> filing, requesting or flying IFR.


That's an interesting perspective since most of the airliners in the
local class B seem to want to stay out of the clouds, particularly in
the summer time, to avoid the bumps from convective activity... and I'm
talking about fairly mundane cumulus clouds. Doesn't seem to be a
problem for them, and it's never been a problem for me, but I don't ask
for pop-up IFR clearances either.

The bottom line is that the needs and capabilities of every aircraft may
be different, but just because someone doesn't have a known-ice aircraft
with radar and turbines on the wings doesn't mean that he shouldn't file
or fly IFR. It simply means that he needs to communicate his needs and
reasons for his requests to controllers who may be used to dealing with
a different type of aircraft.


JKG

"Mike Adams" > wrote in message
news:6rb3c.14830$BA.5150@fed1read03...
>
> I've experienced that very situation also, in Denver and ABQ airspace. It
> got so confusing one time, that the controller had to make a broadcast to
> explain it to all us VFR flight following types, that he had multiple
> transmitters on the same frequency, and not to worry if you don't hear
> every transmission. What I've always wondered, is why do they bother? Are
> they just trying to save a little electricity? It seems like this
switching
> of transmitters on and off is just extra workload for them with no
> particular advantage. No one else is using the frequency in that area
> except him. What am I missing?
>

Self abuse. He can't transmit from multiple sites simultaneously on the
same frequency due to interference.

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote:

> What I've always wondered, is why do they bother? Are
>> they just trying to save a little electricity? It seems like this
> switching
>> of transmitters on and off is just extra workload for them with no
>> particular advantage. No one else is using the frequency in that area
>> except him. What am I missing?
>>
>
> Self abuse. He can't transmit from multiple sites simultaneously on the
> same frequency due to interference.
>

Of course! I should have thought of that. Although the problem would be
minimized for low altitude sectors, where the chances of a given
aircraft hearing multiple transmitters would diminish at lower altitudes.

thanks,
Mike

I think that the big lesson here, that we can all learn from is not to
accept a descent that puts one amongst the clouds until an IFR clearance is
issued.

Mike
MU-2


"Jeff" > wrote in message
...
> actually there was a RJ departing, I saw him pop up over the clouds,
there was
> a 172 at 2000 ft wanting 5000 but was told to turn towards carefree or
stay VFR,
> his choice and there was a archer shooting approaches into IWA, 4 navy
planes
> departed IWA to the south 30 minutes after I landed and oh ya, the guy who
made
> me have to dive to 5000 because the airspace was so congestested.
>
> I am not saying any controller in class B airspace is not busy, I am sure
they
> are.
> but so busy to the point where they cannot handle any more arrivals, even
a slow
> airplane like mine.
>
> I have a pretty good idea how to do this flying stuff. But as I said, I
will
> plan my flights into phoenix differently the next time and get any
clearance I
> need from ABQ.
>
>
>
>
> Mike Rapoport wrote:
>
> > Yeah, I was sitting right next to him when you called. Visiting the ATC
> > center ya know? Saw the whole thing. He wanted to finish the game of
> > solitaire that he was playing on the radar scope and didn't want to be
> > bothered issuing a clearance, so he made up the whole part about being
busy.
> > There really were't any airliners departing PHX that night, no military
or
> > other GA traffic either.
> >
> > Mike
> > MU-2
> >
> > "Jeff" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > and how do you know it was busy ?
> > > were you sitting next to the controller - or is this just another
> > assumption
> > > on your part?
> > >
> > >
> > > Mike Rapoport wrote:
> > >
> > > > Fine, but while flying above the nasty icing clouds, don't ask for
IFR
> > to
> > > > descend to your destination in busy class B airspace!
> > > >
> > > > Mike
> > > > MU-2
> > > >
> > > > "Matthew S. Whiting" > wrote in message
> > > > ...
> > > > > Mike Rapoport wrote:
> > > > > > If you are not prepared to fly in "nasty clouds" then you have
no
> > > > business
> > > > > > filing, requesting or flying IFR.
> > > > >
> > > > > Depends on your definition of nasty. I consider t-storm, funnel
> > clouds,
> > > > > and clouds with temps below freezing to be nasty and I won't fly
into
> > > > > them, at least not intentionally. I hardly think that means I
have no
> > > > > business flying IFR.
> > > > >
> > > > > Not sure what the OPs definition of nasty is, but that is mine.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Matt
> > > > >
> > >
>

OK, if ATC was unable to accommodate the request (to stay clear of the
cloud), would you come here ranting about their incompetence? Do you think
the airline pilots would?

Mike
MU-2

"Jonathan Goodish" > wrote in message
...
> In article t>,
> "Mike Rapoport" > wrote:
>
> > If you are not prepared to fly in "nasty clouds" then you have no
business
> > filing, requesting or flying IFR.
>
>
> That's an interesting perspective since most of the airliners in the
> local class B seem to want to stay out of the clouds, particularly in
> the summer time, to avoid the bumps from convective activity... and I'm
> talking about fairly mundane cumulus clouds. Doesn't seem to be a
> problem for them, and it's never been a problem for me, but I don't ask
> for pop-up IFR clearances either.
>
> The bottom line is that the needs and capabilities of every aircraft may
> be different, but just because someone doesn't have a known-ice aircraft
> with radar and turbines on the wings doesn't mean that he shouldn't file
> or fly IFR. It simply means that he needs to communicate his needs and
> reasons for his requests to controllers who may be used to dealing with
> a different type of aircraft.
>
>
> JKG

So you are only uncomfortable flying in the clouds that you filed your IFR
flightplan through?

Mike
MU-2


"Jeff" > wrote in message
...
> that does not say I am unconfortable flying in the clouds. It only means I
was
> trying to avoid the ones at the freezing levels. thats all it means.
nothing
> more and nothing less.
> your trying to make something out of nothing with out actually being
there.
>
>
> Mike Rapoport wrote:
>
> > Did you write the following?
> >
> > "I chose VFR the first part of the flight so I could have the latitude
to
> > dodge clouds to prevent icing."
> >
> > "so here I am now down from my safe altitude above the clouds"
> >
> > "then here I am in these nasty clouds, outside temp about -2"
> >
> > "then he does not want me to do the ILS, he tells me to decend to 2700
ft
> > and to be prepared for the visual. man what a crappy flight"
> >
> > Mike
> > MU-2
> >
> > "Jeff" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > when did I complain about flying in the clouds?
> >
> > > who complained about not getting the ILS in VMC
> >
> > > who said I was not comfortable with flying in the clouds?
> > >
> > > I think you misread some things.
> > >
> > >
> > > Mike Rapoport wrote:
> > >
> > > > Maybe prepared is not the right word but you make a point of saying
that
> > > > you:flew most of the trip VFR to aviod ice and yet you filed IFR
into
> > class
> > > > B airspace and complained about flying in clouds. You accepted the
> > descent
> > > > to 7000 (amongst the clouds) while VFR. So basically you seem to be
> > > > complaining about not getting your clearance right away, having to
fly
> > IFR
> > > > in clouds and not getting the ILS in VMC. You also complain that he
> > made
> > > > you descend for traffic, separating traffic is the controllers
primary
> > job.
> > > >
> > > > If you are not comfortable flying in icing clouds then don't file
IFR in
> > > > class B airspace when the temp is below freezing. Most of your
issues
> > where
> > > > of your own making and you should accept responsibilty for them
instead
> > of
> > > > blaming someone else. It is odd that the controller said that he
was
> > busy
> > > > on a quiet freq.
> > > >
> > > > Mike
> > > > MU-2
> > > >
> > > > "Jeff" > wrote in message
> > > > ...
> > > > > and how was I not prepared ?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike Rapoport wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > If you are not prepared to fly in "nasty clouds" then you have
no
> > > > business
> > > > > > filing, requesting or flying IFR.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > MU-2
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Jeff" > wrote in message
> > > > > > ...
> > > > > > > Just a quick note to any of you guys flying IFR into the
phoenix
> > area.
> > > > > > > I just got back from a trip to phoenix from vegas, I had filed
a
> > > > > > > composit flgiht plan, VFR untill I was by phoenix then I would
> > request
> > > > > > > my IFR if it was needed since FSS reported overcast at 2700
and
> > few at
> > > > > > > 600.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > freezing level was 7000-8000, MEA was 9000 in some parts and
> > 10,000
> > > > > > > during other parts of route. I chose VFR the first part of the
> > flight
> > > > so
> > > > > > > I could have the latitude to dodge clouds to prevent icing.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > all went fine, I got handed off to phoenix approach, I was at
> > 12,000
> > > > ft
> > > > > > > on top of the layer, no way into phoenix except through that
mess
> > > > > > > either. So I asked phoenix for my IFR and he said I was
cleared
> > into
> > > > > > > class B and to decend to 7000 and he would look for my
clearence.
> > I
> > > > > > > start my decent, between some clouds and he comes back and
says to
> > > > turn
> > > > > > > toward carefree if I want to pick up my IFR because he was to
> > busy.
> > > > no
> > > > > > > one was talking except me.
> > > > > > > then he told me to stay clear of class B. so here I am now
down
> > from
> > > > my
> > > > > > > safe altitude above the clouds, a nitwit controller, I zig zag
> > between
> > > > > > > some clouds and call him again, he says he cant see me on
radar
> > and to
> > > > > > > turn towards carefree, so I figured I would follow the valley
> > under
> > > > some
> > > > > > > clouds, then my wife says dont turn that way, that mountain is
> > covered
> > > > > > > by clouds, so I get back on the radio and tell the controller
he
> > got
> > > > me
> > > > > > > down here, I amnow stuck and I needed my clearence or I would
be
> > in
> > > > > > > trouble. He finally said, ok, and gave it to me. man that guy
> > ****ed
> > > > me
> > > > > > > off. there was another guy trying to do the same thing as me
in a
> > > > > > > cessna, right after I got my clearence, and the controller
told
> > him to
> > > > > > > stay at 2500 ft and turn towards carefree because he was
> > "saturated"
> > > > > > > with IFR departures. Yet no one else was talking. then here I
am
> > in
> > > > > > > these nasty clouds, outside temp about -2, he gives me to
decend
> > to
> > > > > > > 6000, then right after that screams at me traffic alert decend
to
> > 5000
> > > > > > > ...so I am in total IMC diving down to 5000 ft.. then he does
not
> > > > want
> > > > > > > me to do the ILS, he tells me to decend to 2700 ft and to be
> > prepared
> > > > > > > for the visual. man what a crappy flight - and I didnt even
tell
> > you
> > > > > > > about the 1500 fpm downdraft or when my engine started losing
> > power.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > that controller still has me ****ed off and its 2 days later.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
>

Mike Rapoport wrote:

> OK, if ATC was unable to accommodate the request (to stay clear of the
> cloud), would you come here ranting about their incompetence? Do you think
> the airline pilots would?
>

I'll concede him one point. He stated he attempted to pick-up his IFR
clearance from ABQ earlier en route but they wouldn't provide service unless he
accepted routing towards Drake, higher terrain, and worse weather. That is an
ugly pattern that has grown worse over the years, sterilization of western U.S.
Victor airways for MOAs even when they are likely not in use.

> wrote in message ...
>
>
> Mike Rapoport wrote:
>
> > OK, if ATC was unable to accommodate the request (to stay clear of the
> > cloud), would you come here ranting about their incompetence? Do you
think
> > the airline pilots would?
> >
>
> I'll concede him one point. He stated he attempted to pick-up his IFR
> clearance from ABQ earlier en route but they wouldn't provide service
unless he
> accepted routing towards Drake, higher terrain, and worse weather. That
is an
> ugly pattern that has grown worse over the years, sterilization of western
U.S.
> Victor airways for MOAs even when they are likely not in use.
>

Anybody who files IFR from Las Vegas to Pheonix has to expect to go over
DRK.

Mike
MU-2

I don't understand how you got so close to the clouds before you got
an IFR clearance. Outside of class B you have to maintain 1000' above
the cloud layer to remain VFR. I am assuming you were in class E
airspace; if it was class G, then I apologize. Your post indicates
that you were outside of class B, yet you were zig zagging around the
clouds.





Jeff > wrote in message >...
> Just a quick note to any of you guys flying IFR into the phoenix area.
> I just got back from a trip to phoenix from vegas, I had filed a
> composit flgiht plan, VFR untill I was by phoenix then I would request
> my IFR if it was needed since FSS reported overcast at 2700 and few at
> 600.
>
> freezing level was 7000-8000, MEA was 9000 in some parts and 10,000
> during other parts of route. I chose VFR the first part of the flight so
> I could have the latitude to dodge clouds to prevent icing.
>
> all went fine, I got handed off to phoenix approach, I was at 12,000 ft
> on top of the layer, no way into phoenix except through that mess
> either. So I asked phoenix for my IFR and he said I was cleared into
> class B and to decend to 7000 and he would look for my clearence. I
> start my decent, between some clouds and he comes back and says to turn
> toward carefree if I want to pick up my IFR because he was to busy. no
> one was talking except me.
> then he told me to stay clear of class B. so here I am now down from my
> safe altitude above the clouds, a nitwit controller, I zig zag between
> some clouds and call him again, he says he cant see me on radar and to
> turn towards carefree, so I figured I would follow the valley under some
> clouds, then my wife says dont turn that way, that mountain is covered
> by clouds, so I get back on the radio and tell the controller he got me
> down here, I amnow stuck and I needed my clearence or I would be in
> trouble. He finally said, ok, and gave it to me. man that guy ****ed me
> off. there was another guy trying to do the same thing as me in a
> cessna, right after I got my clearence, and the controller told him to
> stay at 2500 ft and turn towards carefree because he was "saturated"
> with IFR departures. Yet no one else was talking. then here I am in
> these nasty clouds, outside temp about -2, he gives me to decend to
> 6000, then right after that screams at me traffic alert decend to 5000
> ...so I am in total IMC diving down to 5000 ft.. then he does not want
> me to do the ILS, he tells me to decend to 2700 ft and to be prepared
> for the visual. man what a crappy flight - and I didnt even tell you
> about the 1500 fpm downdraft or when my engine started losing power.
>
> that controller still has me ****ed off and its 2 days later.

In article et>, "Mike
Rapoport" > writes:

>OK, if ATC was unable to accommodate the request (to stay clear of the
>cloud), would you come here ranting about their incompetence? Do you think
>the airline pilots would?
>

Get off it, Mike. Jeff had an "experience" and he shared it with us and we've
had our comments - pro and con. Your continuing to beat on it will make the
less calloused in the group not post. We will all (you included if you have
anything to learn) be the worse for it. Personally, I've followed the advice
or direction of someone else (both controllers and my wife) and later found
that I wish I hadn't. I'd like this group to be free discussion with less
vitriol.

Chuck

In article >, "Matthew S. Whiting"
> writes:

>Is this true for all positions? I think our local controllers (sleepy
>old ELM) sometimes work tower and ground at the same time and you don't
>hear the ground communications on tower and vice versa.
>

My experience when this would happen is that tower says "stay with me" or "stay
this freq" instead of working me on a different freq.

Chuck

I'm not "beating on it" I was responding to someones post.

I agree that Jeff had an "experience". The issue is that he is blaming his
"experience" on someone else instead of taking responsibility for it and
learning from it.

Mike
MU-2

"PaulaJay1" > wrote in message
...
> In article et>, "Mike
> Rapoport" > writes:
>
> >OK, if ATC was unable to accommodate the request (to stay clear of the
> >cloud), would you come here ranting about their incompetence? Do you
think
> >the airline pilots would?
> >
>
> Get off it, Mike. Jeff had an "experience" and he shared it with us and
we've
> had our comments - pro and con. Your continuing to beat on it will make
the
> less calloused in the group not post. We will all (you included if you
have
> anything to learn) be the worse for it. Personally, I've followed the
advice
> or direction of someone else (both controllers and my wife) and later
found
> that I wish I hadn't. I'd like this group to be free discussion with less
> vitriol.
>
> Chuck

Mike Rapoport wrote:

>
>
> Anybody who files IFR from Las Vegas to Pheonix has to expect to go over
> DRK.
>
> Mike
> MU-2

Not if they file to go south then come in from the west over Buckeye. In an
MU-2, you're right, who cares? But, in a Cessna 182, if I want to fly the extra
miles for my perception of safety, that should be my choice. Aircraft enter the
PHX terminal airspace from over Buckeye just as much as they do from over Drake.

PaulaJay1 wrote:
> In article >, "Matthew S. Whiting"
> > writes:
>
>
>>Is this true for all positions? I think our local controllers (sleepy
>>old ELM) sometimes work tower and ground at the same time and you don't
>>hear the ground communications on tower and vice versa.
>>
>
>
> My experience when this would happen is that tower says "stay with me" or "stay
> this freq" instead of working me on a different freq.
>
> Chuck

That happens often on the way back in, but they've always used .9 for
clearance delivery and taxi clearance outbound. Often when I arrived
late at night I would get the stay with me instruction. However, I
always call the ground frequency when heading out and have never been
instructed to switch to tower for either my IFR or taxi clearance.


Matt

Well, it depends what your definition of "high clouds" is. When a
monsoon hits Phoenix during the summer (6 or 7 nights a week, ALL of
summer) the ceiling usually gets down to between 700 feet and 1000
feet. I consider that fairly low, and it will most definitely cover
most mountains in the Phoenix area.

Doug

Jeff > wrote in message >...
> but its high clouds for the most part, you dont get the clouds covering the mountains like you had
> this last week or so.

(Ditch) wrote in message >...
> >Is that always true? I know I hear this pattern sometimes, but I thought
> >it wasn't necessarily true.
>
> Not i my experience. I have actually heard the controller's transmission stop
> midway thru as he was talking to an airplane on another freq....switched to the
> freq he was talking to the other airplane on and hear him finish his
> transmission.

Yeah, seems like I've had a similar experience -- heard another
aircraft told "change to my frequency blah blah point blah", didn't
hear any other ATC transmissions to that plane, wanted to know 'cuz
I was heading for that airport, put that freq up on #2 comm and heard
'em.

> Most of the time they will broadcast on all the freqs they are
> working, but not always.

I wonder if it's some sort of hardware patch thing, where normally
they just route all the transmitters to one place and broadcast on
all the freqs they're working, but if there's a glitch of some kind
they wind up having to manually switch to work around it.

Not that any portion of our ATC system would ever experience any
kind of glitch that their tech. folks have to patch around or
anything like that....

Cheers,
Sydney

Jeff > wrote in message >...
> I dont know if its up to the controller or not on how they process IFR
> requests, but this was not a pop up, he had my flight plan.

Jeff, not meaning to pick on you, but this is one of the points:

How do you know he had your flight plan?

If you filed an IFR flight plan originating in ABQ airspace, the
Phoenix TRACON wouldn't have your flight plan or a strip on you or
any other info about you, until the ATC facility where your flight
plan originated "departs" you. I didn't know this until we were
"bitten" in a somewhat similar way, departing in ZKC airspace and
trying to pick up a clearance from T75 (Stl Tracon) and I followed
up on it. Even though we departed from an airport quite close to
T75 they wouldn't get a thing on us until ZKC "departed" us, the
controller had to call ZKC. Depending on the airspace maybe
figure out who to call.

> In hind site, I know now not to expect to be able to do this in the phoenix
> area, and to get any clearance I need going into phoenix from ABQ.

Well, at the least, I would remain where you're comfortable while
you get the situation sorted out...or make sure you file an IFR plan
which originates somewhere inside PHX airspace so they'll definately
have your plan.

Just my $0.02,
Sydney

Jeff > wrote in message >...
> I was not dependent on them granting my every wish nor was I dependent on
> anything except being able to land.
> I guess my problem was decending in the first place when he said he was
> looking for my clearance and told to do so assuming he would pull it up.
>
> He damn sure pulled it up quick when I made my last call to him, he didnt even
> need to ask my tail number again or any other information, so it appears to me
> had had access to it the entire time and just did not want to mess with it.

It may "appear to you" but that's not necessarily correct. Apparently you
were receiving radar services of some sort (flight following) so he would
have your tail number for that, or he may have written it down to follow
up and look for your flight plan.

If he had to call ABQ and ask them to depart you as sounds likely, the
strip could have come through to him just before you called back. Also,
if he had reason to believe that you were in weather difficulty (which is
what your account of your last transmission sounds like to me), like
any good controller he is going to put a higher priority on tracking down
your flight plan pronto and if I understand correctly he also has more
leeway to give you a clearance now and track down the rest of the info
later.

Cheers,
Sydney

Yeah, and if you DIDN'T flile a flightplan, tell 'em you did, at a FSS
Far, Far Away.

(Snowbird) wrote in message >...
> Jeff > wrote in message >...
> > I dont know if its up to the controller or not on how they process IFR
> > requests, but this was not a pop up, he had my flight plan.
>
> Jeff, not meaning to pick on you, but this is one of the points:
>
> How do you know he had your flight plan?
>
> If you filed an IFR flight plan originating in ABQ airspace, the
> Phoenix TRACON wouldn't have your flight plan or a strip on you or
> any other info about you, until the ATC facility where your flight
> plan originated "departs" you. I didn't know this until we were
> "bitten" in a somewhat similar way, departing in ZKC airspace and
> trying to pick up a clearance from T75 (Stl Tracon) and I followed
> up on it. Even though we departed from an airport quite close to
> T75 they wouldn't get a thing on us until ZKC "departed" us, the
> controller had to call ZKC. Depending on the airspace maybe
> figure out who to call.
>
> > In hind site, I know now not to expect to be able to do this in the phoenix
> > area, and to get any clearance I need going into phoenix from ABQ.
>
> Well, at the least, I would remain where you're comfortable while
> you get the situation sorted out...or make sure you file an IFR plan
> which originates somewhere inside PHX airspace so they'll definately
> have your plan.
>
> Just my $0.02,
> Sydney

"Doug" > wrote in message
om...
>
> Yeah, and if you DIDN'T flile a flightplan, tell 'em you did, at a FSS
> Far, Far Away.
>

Why?

True, but if the MOAs are active then it will be a *really* long flight.
Eyeballing it on Flightmap, it looks about 90nm longer. Most of the traffic
over Buckeye is probably coming from Los Angeles not Las Vegas

Mike
MU-2
> wrote in message ...
>
>
> Mike Rapoport wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Anybody who files IFR from Las Vegas to Pheonix has to expect to go over
> > DRK.
> >
> > Mike
> > MU-2
>
> Not if they file to go south then come in from the west over Buckeye. In
an
> MU-2, you're right, who cares? But, in a Cessna 182, if I want to fly the
extra
> miles for my perception of safety, that should be my choice. Aircraft
enter the
> PHX terminal airspace from over Buckeye just as much as they do from over
Drake.
>

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
hlink.net...
>
> "Doug" > wrote in message
> om...
> >
> > Yeah, and if you DIDN'T flile a flightplan, tell 'em you did, at a FSS
> > Far, Far Away.
> >
>
> Why?
>

So you can hear the magic words "Unable IFR clearance, and remain outside
Phoenix Class Bravo Airspace..."


Chip, ZTL

Mike Rapoport wrote:

> Most of the traffic
> over Buckeye is probably coming from Los Angeles not Las Vegas

No doubt about that.

Taking a different track, so i changed the thread/subject line...

If you are on a composite flight plan (VFR, then IFR) who is responsible for
closing the VFR portion of the plan? If the VFR plan is not closed (with
FSS if a true VFR plan) then SAR will be initiated if they cannot get hold
of you within an hour or two.

How does this work with a composite flight plan?



On Sun, 07 Mar 2004 15:39:17 -0800, Jeff > wrote:

> Just a quick note to any of you guys flying IFR into the phoenix area.
> I just got back from a trip to phoenix from vegas, I had filed a
> composit flgiht plan, VFR untill I was by phoenix then I would request
> my IFR if it was needed since FSS reported overcast at 2700 and few at
> 600.
>
> freezing level was 7000-8000, MEA was 9000 in some parts and 10,000
> during other parts of route. I chose VFR the first part of the flight so
> I could have the latitude to dodge clouds to prevent icing.
>
> all went fine, I got handed off to phoenix approach, I was at 12,000 ft
> on top of the layer, no way into phoenix except through that mess
> either. So I asked phoenix for my IFR and he said I was cleared into
> class B and to decend to 7000 and he would look for my clearence. I
> start my decent, between some clouds and he comes back and says to turn
> toward carefree if I want to pick up my IFR because he was to busy. no
> one was talking except me.
> then he told me to stay clear of class B. so here I am now down from my
> safe altitude above the clouds, a nitwit controller, I zig zag between
> some clouds and call him again, he says he cant see me on radar and to
> turn towards carefree, so I figured I would follow the valley under some
> clouds, then my wife says dont turn that way, that mountain is covered
> by clouds, so I get back on the radio and tell the controller he got me
> down here, I amnow stuck and I needed my clearence or I would be in
> trouble. He finally said, ok, and gave it to me. man that guy ****ed me
> off. there was another guy trying to do the same thing as me in a
> cessna, right after I got my clearence, and the controller told him to
> stay at 2500 ft and turn towards carefree because he was "saturated"
> with IFR departures. Yet no one else was talking. then here I am in
> these nasty clouds, outside temp about -2, he gives me to decend to
> 6000, then right after that screams at me traffic alert decend to 5000
> ...so I am in total IMC diving down to 5000 ft.. then he does not want
> me to do the ILS, he tells me to decend to 2700 ft and to be prepared
> for the visual. man what a crappy flight - and I didnt even tell you
> about the 1500 fpm downdraft or when my engine started losing power.
>
> that controller still has me ****ed off and its 2 days later.
>
>

Jay Somerset wrote:
> Taking a different track, so i changed the thread/subject line...
>
> If you are on a composite flight plan (VFR, then IFR) who is responsible for
> closing the VFR portion of the plan? If the VFR plan is not closed (with
> FSS if a true VFR plan) then SAR will be initiated if they cannot get hold
> of you within an hour or two.
>
> How does this work with a composite flight plan?

The pilot is responsible for contacting FSS and closing the VFR portion of the
flight plan.

DGB
Remove SHIRT to reply directly.

The answer to your question as well as to the general question of who is
responsible for closing any flight plan is: The pilot-in-command

Though generally speaking when you land at a towered airport they usually
close your IFR flight plan for you,,, but it is more a courtesy rather than
something they are 'responsible' for,,, so-to-speak. In the end it is the
responsibility of the PIC

--
--
=-----
Good Flights!

Cecil
PP-ASEL
Student-IASEL

Check out my personal flying adventures from my first flight to the
checkride AND the continuing adventures beyond!
Complete with pictures and text at: www.bayareapilot.com

"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery -

"We who fly, do so for the love of flying. We are alive in the air with
this miracle that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
- Cecil Day Lewis -

"Cecil E. Chapman" > wrote in message
. com...
>
> Though generally speaking when you land at a towered airport they
> usually close your IFR flight plan for you,,, but it is more a courtesy
> rather than something they are 'responsible' for,,, so-to-speak. In
> the end it is the responsibility of the PIC
>

When you land at a towered field in the US your IFR flight plan is closed
automatically. ATC takes no action to close it, it's closed simply because
you've arrived at your clearance limit. Action is taken only if you don't
arrive - a search is started.

??? So, the process is 'automated' in some way? What ATC and/or pilot
action toggles the action to closure?

--
--
=-----
Good Flights!

Cecil
PP-ASEL
Student-IASEL

Check out my personal flying adventures from my first flight to the
checkride AND the continuing adventures beyond!
Complete with pictures and text at: www.bayareapilot.com

"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery -

"We who fly, do so for the love of flying. We are alive in the air with
this miracle that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
- Cecil Day Lewis -
"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "Cecil E. Chapman" > wrote in message
> . com...
> >
> > Though generally speaking when you land at a towered airport they
> > usually close your IFR flight plan for you,,, but it is more a courtesy
> > rather than something they are 'responsible' for,,, so-to-speak. In
> > the end it is the responsibility of the PIC
> >
>
> When you land at a towered field in the US your IFR flight plan is closed
> automatically. ATC takes no action to close it, it's closed simply
because
> you've arrived at your clearance limit. Action is taken only if you don't
> arrive - a search is started.
>
>

Cecil E. Chapman wrote:
> ??? So, the process is 'automated' in some way? What ATC and/or pilot
> action toggles the action to closure?


None. No action necessary.

Dave Butler wrote:
> Jay Somerset wrote:
>
>> Taking a different track, so i changed the thread/subject line...
>>
>> If you are on a composite flight plan (VFR, then IFR) who is
>> responsible for
>> closing the VFR portion of the plan? If the VFR plan is not closed (with
>> FSS if a true VFR plan) then SAR will be initiated if they cannot get
>> hold
>> of you within an hour or two.
>>
>> How does this work with a composite flight plan?
>
>
> The pilot is responsible for contacting FSS and closing the VFR portion
> of the flight plan.

And along the same vein, I was reading the AIM the other night and it
said that an FSS should also be contacted to get the IFR clearance at
the appropriate point. I believe the OP said he requested his IFR
clearance from approach control, which is contrary to the procedure
documented in the AIM. It doesn't say that another facility CAN'T give
you the IFR clearance for the IFR part of the composite flight plan, but
it specifically says to contact FSS for this. I assume that is written
there for a reason. Maybe if the OP has followed the recommended
procedure he would have had better luck.


Matt

Cecil E. Chapman wrote:
> The answer to your question as well as to the general question of who is
> responsible for closing any flight plan is: The pilot-in-command
>
> Though generally speaking when you land at a towered airport they usually
> close your IFR flight plan for you,,, but it is more a courtesy rather than
> something they are 'responsible' for,,, so-to-speak. In the end it is the
> responsibility of the PIC
>

I don't believe the statement above relative to an IFR flight plan to a
towered airport is correct. In that case the procedure is that ATC
closes the flight plan for the pilot. This is the standard procedure,
not a "courtesy" to the pilot.


Matt

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> "Cecil E. Chapman" > wrote in message
> . com...
>
>>Though generally speaking when you land at a towered airport they
>>usually close your IFR flight plan for you,,, but it is more a courtesy
>>rather than something they are 'responsible' for,,, so-to-speak. In
>>the end it is the responsibility of the PIC
>>
>
>
> When you land at a towered field in the US your IFR flight plan is closed
> automatically. ATC takes no action to close it, it's closed simply because
> you've arrived at your clearance limit. Action is taken only if you don't
> arrive - a search is started.
>
>

Doesn't ATC have to take SOME action to confirm your arrival? If not,
how is that different from a landing at a non-towered airport on an IFR
flight plan? How does the computer know the difference?


Matt

I guess to be clearer,,, since I'm getting a lot of reply threads to my
post.... I suppose I am answering in the manner that the D.E. would like, in
answer to the question, "Who is ultimately responsible for whether a flight
plan gets closed or not?" The D.E., would be looking for the response,,,,,
the pilot-in-command.....

--
--
=-----
Good Flights!

Cecil
PP-ASEL
Student-IASEL

Check out my personal flying adventures from my first flight to the
checkride AND the continuing adventures beyond!
Complete with pictures and text at: www.bayareapilot.com

"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery -

"We who fly, do so for the love of flying. We are alive in the air with
this miracle that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
- Cecil Day Lewis -
"Jay Somerset" > wrote in message
...
> Taking a different track, so i changed the thread/subject line...
>
> If you are on a composite flight plan (VFR, then IFR) who is responsible
for
> closing the VFR portion of the plan? If the VFR plan is not closed (with
> FSS if a true VFR plan) then SAR will be initiated if they cannot get hold
> of you within an hour or two.
>
> How does this work with a composite flight plan?
>
>
>
> On Sun, 07 Mar 2004 15:39:17 -0800, Jeff > wrote:
>
> > Just a quick note to any of you guys flying IFR into the phoenix area.
> > I just got back from a trip to phoenix from vegas, I had filed a
> > composit flgiht plan, VFR untill I was by phoenix then I would request
> > my IFR if it was needed since FSS reported overcast at 2700 and few at
> > 600.
> >
> > freezing level was 7000-8000, MEA was 9000 in some parts and 10,000
> > during other parts of route. I chose VFR the first part of the flight so
> > I could have the latitude to dodge clouds to prevent icing.
> >
> > all went fine, I got handed off to phoenix approach, I was at 12,000 ft
> > on top of the layer, no way into phoenix except through that mess
> > either. So I asked phoenix for my IFR and he said I was cleared into
> > class B and to decend to 7000 and he would look for my clearence. I
> > start my decent, between some clouds and he comes back and says to turn
> > toward carefree if I want to pick up my IFR because he was to busy. no
> > one was talking except me.
> > then he told me to stay clear of class B. so here I am now down from my
> > safe altitude above the clouds, a nitwit controller, I zig zag between
> > some clouds and call him again, he says he cant see me on radar and to
> > turn towards carefree, so I figured I would follow the valley under some
> > clouds, then my wife says dont turn that way, that mountain is covered
> > by clouds, so I get back on the radio and tell the controller he got me
> > down here, I amnow stuck and I needed my clearence or I would be in
> > trouble. He finally said, ok, and gave it to me. man that guy ****ed me
> > off. there was another guy trying to do the same thing as me in a
> > cessna, right after I got my clearence, and the controller told him to
> > stay at 2500 ft and turn towards carefree because he was "saturated"
> > with IFR departures. Yet no one else was talking. then here I am in
> > these nasty clouds, outside temp about -2, he gives me to decend to
> > 6000, then right after that screams at me traffic alert decend to 5000
> > ...so I am in total IMC diving down to 5000 ft.. then he does not want
> > me to do the ILS, he tells me to decend to 2700 ft and to be prepared
> > for the visual. man what a crappy flight - and I didnt even tell you
> > about the 1500 fpm downdraft or when my engine started losing power.
> >
> > that controller still has me ****ed off and its 2 days later.
> >
> >
>

"Cecil E. Chapman" > wrote in message
. com...
>
> ??? So, the process is 'automated' in some way?
>

It's not "automated", it's "automatic".


>
> What ATC and/or pilot
> action toggles the action to closure?
>

Pilot: Lands.

ATC: Observes pilot land.

That's it. Flight plan is now closed.

"Matthew S. Whiting" > wrote in message
...
>
> And along the same vein, I was reading the AIM the other night and it
> said that an FSS should also be contacted to get the IFR clearance at
> the appropriate point. I believe the OP said he requested his IFR
> clearance from approach control, which is contrary to the procedure
> documented in the AIM. It doesn't say that another facility CAN'T give
> you the IFR clearance for the IFR part of the composite flight plan, but
> it specifically says to contact FSS for this. I assume that is written
> there for a reason. Maybe if the OP has followed the recommended
> procedure he would have had better luck.
>

If you call FSS for the clearance, FSS then has to call ATC. If you call
ATC directly you skip the middle man.

"Matthew S. Whiting" > wrote in message
...
>
> Doesn't ATC have to take SOME action to confirm your arrival?
>

Only if you consider watching the aircraft land to be some action.


>
> If not, how is that different from a landing at a non-towered airport
> on an IFR flight plan?
>

At a non-towered airport ATC is not able to observe the pilot land, so the
pilot must tell ATC he's landed or cancel IFR.


>
> How does the computer know the difference?
>

The computer doesn't need to know, there's no computer processing beyond the
destination airport.

If a pilot cancels IFR while enroute the controller receiving the
cancellation will enter a "remove strips" message, every ATC position
downline that has received a strip will receive that message. If you're the
last controller, tower controller at a controlled field or the controller
providing approach control services for an untowered field, there's nobody
to pass that message to.

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> "Matthew S. Whiting" > wrote in message
> ...
>>If not, how is that different from a landing at a non-towered airport
>>on an IFR flight plan?
>>
>
>
> At a non-towered airport ATC is not able to observe the pilot land, so the
> pilot must tell ATC he's landed or cancel IFR.

Does the ATC controller then intiate SAR if the pilot hasn't called in
within 30 minutes or so? I'm real nervous now if you are telling me
that it is up to the last controller to initiate SAR if a flight plan
isn't closed by the pilot. I always assumed some computer somewhere
kept track of open flight plans and automatically kicked something out
if one was still open at some time past the ETA.

Seems nuts to be that something as critical as SAR initiation for an
overdue airplane wouldn't be automated when it is so easy to do so.
These are the things computers do best.


Matt

"Matthew S. Whiting" > wrote in message
...
>
> Does the ATC controller then intiate SAR if the pilot hasn't called in
> within 30 minutes or so? I'm real nervous now if you are telling me
> that it is up to the last controller to initiate SAR if a flight plan
> isn't closed by the pilot. I always assumed some computer somewhere
> kept track of open flight plans and automatically kicked something out
> if one was still open at some time past the ETA.
>
> Seems nuts to be that something as critical as SAR initiation for an
> overdue airplane wouldn't be automated when it is so easy to do so.
> These are the things computers do best.
>

There are formal procedures for overdue aircraft, but they are initiated by
humans, not computers. Usually, if an aircraft fails to cancel, they are
found before those procedures become necessary. A phone call to the FBO
works pretty well, for example.

Matthew S. Whiting wrote:

> Does the ATC controller then intiate SAR if the pilot hasn't called in
> within 30 minutes or so?

You are never out of contact with ATC, how could this be a factor.


I'm real nervous now if you are telling me
> that it is up to the last controller to initiate SAR if a flight plan
> isn't closed by the pilot.

You are flying to East Podunk towered airport, talking to the center.
You call the airport in sight and the center controller clears you for
the visual or you are given a regular approach. At about 10 miles out
the center tells you to cantact the tower. The tower already knows you
are coming. Now, what is there to worry about?


I always assumed some computer somewhere
> kept track of open flight plans and automatically kicked something out
> if one was still open at some time past the ETA.

Not for IFR, just VFR.

>
> Seems nuts to be that something as critical as SAR initiation for an
> overdue airplane wouldn't be automated when it is so easy to do so.
> These are the things computers do best.

ATC is talking to you at all times. That is much better than a computer
keeping track of you.

"Newps" > wrote in message
news:HNE5c.21813$_w.486759@attbi_s53...
>
> You are never out of contact with ATC, how could this be a factor.
>

You're not in contact with ATC when you've switched to CTAF.


>
> ATC is talking to you at all times. That is much better than a computer
> keeping track of you.
>

ATC is NOT necessarily talking to you at all times. Even while enroute
there are areas without direct pilot/controller communications.

Steven P. McNicoll ) wrote:

>
> If you call FSS for the clearance, FSS then has to call ATC.
> If you call ATC directly you skip the middle man.

If only all controllers provided this exemplary service. One time last
summer, I overheard two different GA aircraft within a few minutes of each
other attempt to pick up their IFR clearances while in the air inside
Philadelphia Approach's airspace.

The controller, after hearing the second request, asked what is going on
here, then proceeded to lecture all listening that IFR aircraft should be
contacting flight service for clearances when in the air.

The controller then answered the second aircraft and told him to do just
that, then returned to servicing all other aircraft under his control.


--
Peter












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"Peter R." > wrote in message
...
>
> If only all controllers provided this exemplary service. One time last
> summer, I overheard two different GA aircraft within a few minutes of
> each other attempt to pick up their IFR clearances while in the air inside
> Philadelphia Approach's airspace.
>
> The controller, after hearing the second request, asked what is going on
> here, then proceeded to lecture all listening that IFR aircraft should be
> contacting flight service for clearances when in the air.
>
> The controller then answered the second aircraft and told him to do just
> that, then returned to servicing all other aircraft under his control.
>

Were they trying to file and pick up clearances directly with ATC, or were
they trying to pick up an IFR clearance on a flight plan they had previously
filed with FSS?

If they were attempting the latter, the controller's actions make absolutely
no sense. It's easier for him to issue the clearance directly than it is to
do it through FSS.

Steven P. McNicoll ) wrote:

> Were they trying to file and pick up clearances directly with ATC, or were
> they trying to pick up an IFR clearance on a flight plan they had previously
> filed with FSS?

The latter.

> If they were attempting the latter, the controller's actions make absolutely
> no sense. It's easier for him to issue the clearance directly than it is to
> do it through FSS.

That's what my relatively IFR-inexperienced mind was thinking at the time.

--
Peter












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"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
ink.net...

> > What ATC and/or pilot
> > action toggles the action to closure?
> >
>
> Pilot: Lands.
>
> ATC: Observes pilot land.
>
> That's it. Flight plan is now closed.

Here's where I, and I suspect many others, have the hole in our
understanding. Isn't the flight plan in some FAA computers somewhere? And
doesn't some record need to be deleted? Maybe the plan will eventually
evaporate if no more action is taken? Surely it can't be deleted just
because Approach handed off to Tower - the pilot may need to fly a missed.

-- David Brooks

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> "Matthew S. Whiting" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Does the ATC controller then intiate SAR if the pilot hasn't called in
>>within 30 minutes or so? I'm real nervous now if you are telling me
>>that it is up to the last controller to initiate SAR if a flight plan
>>isn't closed by the pilot. I always assumed some computer somewhere
>>kept track of open flight plans and automatically kicked something out
>>if one was still open at some time past the ETA.
>>
>>Seems nuts to be that something as critical as SAR initiation for an
>>overdue airplane wouldn't be automated when it is so easy to do so.
>>These are the things computers do best.
>>
>
>
> There are formal procedures for overdue aircraft, but they are initiated by
> humans, not computers. Usually, if an aircraft fails to cancel, they are
> found before those procedures become necessary. A phone call to the FBO
> works pretty well, for example.
>
>

You are telling me that a controller never gets busy and forgets that
the pilot who landed at Podunk Regional on an IFR flight plan never
called to cancel his flight plan? This seems like a serious flaw in the
ATC system.


Matt

Newps wrote:
>
>
> Matthew S. Whiting wrote:
>
>> Does the ATC controller then intiate SAR if the pilot hasn't called in
>> within 30 minutes or so?
>
>
> You are never out of contact with ATC, how could this be a factor.

There are lots of airports here in northern PA where you can't talk to
the controller on the ground after landing.


> I'm real nervous now if you are telling me
>
>> that it is up to the last controller to initiate SAR if a flight plan
>> isn't closed by the pilot.
>
>
> You are flying to East Podunk towered airport, talking to the center.
> You call the airport in sight and the center controller clears you for
> the visual or you are given a regular approach. At about 10 miles out
> the center tells you to cantact the tower. The tower already knows you
> are coming. Now, what is there to worry about?

The two airports I landed at most frequently after IFR flights are N38
and 7N1. Neither have control towers, nor even a human around much of
the time.


> I always assumed some computer somewhere
>
>> kept track of open flight plans and automatically kicked something out
>> if one was still open at some time past the ETA.
>
>
> Not for IFR, just VFR.

Interesting that a VFR flight plan is more automated than an IFR flight
plan.


>> Seems nuts to be that something as critical as SAR initiation for an
>> overdue airplane wouldn't be automated when it is so easy to do so.
>> These are the things computers do best.
>
>
> ATC is talking to you at all times. That is much better than a computer
> keeping track of you.

Not always, see above. If you are flying into a towered airport, this
is true. Not all IFR flights end at towered airports. I typically
cancelled in the air when flying into N38 or 7N1, however, if the
weather was marginal or if the runway condition was unknown (winter), I
didn't want to cancel until I was on the ground. This required a phone
call. You are saying that if I didn't make this phone call and the last
controller I talked with forgot about me, I could be laying in a ditch
in the snow for hours???


Matt

>>
You are telling me that a controller never gets busy and forgets that
the pilot who landed at Podunk Regional on an IFR flight plan never
called to cancel his flight plan? This seems like a serious flaw in the
ATC system.
<<

Remember that ATC has the airspace at Podunk tied up until the (IFR) flight
plan is cancelled. It's on his mind.

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

Teacherjh wrote:
> You are telling me that a controller never gets busy and forgets that
> the pilot who landed at Podunk Regional on an IFR flight plan never
> called to cancel his flight plan? This seems like a serious flaw in the
> ATC system.
> <<
>
> Remember that ATC has the airspace at Podunk tied up until the (IFR) flight
> plan is cancelled. It's on his mind.
>
> Jose
>

That's true, but there's still room for error here that could easily be
automated into oblivion. Just seems odd to me that this wouldn't be
done, especially since it apparently already exists for VFR flight plans.


Matt

"David Brooks" > wrote in message
...
>
> Here's where I, and I suspect many others, have the hole in our
> understanding. Isn't the flight plan in some FAA computers somewhere?
>

It may be, or it may have already timed out.


>
> And doesn't some record need to be deleted?
>

No, it doesn't need to be deleted. If it's still in the computer it will
time out shortly. Remember, you've reached the destination airport. You're
at the end of the line. There's nobody to relay any information to.


>
> Maybe the plan will eventually evaporate if no more action is taken?
>

'Zackly.


>
> Surely it can't be deleted just because Approach handed off to
> Tower - the pilot may need to fly a missed.
>

Which will require manual coordination whether or not the flight plan is
still in the system.

And don't call me Shirley.

"Matthew S. Whiting" > wrote in message
...
>
> You are telling me that a controller never gets busy and forgets that
> the pilot who landed at Podunk Regional on an IFR flight plan never
> called to cancel his flight plan?
>

No, I'm not telling you that. I mentioned that situation in the message you
just responded to. Perhaps you should actually read it before responding.


>
> This seems like a serious flaw in the ATC system.
>

Well, it's not.

"Matthew S. Whiting" > wrote in message
...
>
> That's true, but there's still room for error here that could easily be
> automated into oblivion.
>

What's the error there's room for and how would you automate it into
oblivion?

"Matthew S. Whiting" > wrote in message
...
>
> Not always, see above. If you are flying into a towered airport, this
> is true. Not all IFR flights end at towered airports. I typically
> cancelled in the air when flying into N38 or 7N1, however, if the
> weather was marginal or if the runway condition was unknown (winter), I
> didn't want to cancel until I was on the ground. This required a phone
> call. You are saying that if I didn't make this phone call and the last
> controller I talked with forgot about me, I could be laying in a ditch
> in the snow for hours???
>

Well, there's a strip in front of him showing that you were cleared for
approach but hadn't yet cancelled IFR to remind him. What would you want to
see done differently?

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
> "David Brooks" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > Here's where I, and I suspect many others, have the hole in our
> > understanding. Isn't the flight plan in some FAA computers somewhere?
> >
>
> It may be, or it may have already timed out.
>
>
> >
> > And doesn't some record need to be deleted?
> >
>
> No, it doesn't need to be deleted. If it's still in the computer it will
> time out shortly. Remember, you've reached the destination airport.
You're
> at the end of the line. There's nobody to relay any information to.
>

Ok, the closest I can get to the ATC computers is what I see reported on
fboweb flight tracking. (Thanks for the explanation of the routing codes
you gave me before). Sometimes at the end of the flight it displays a
status of "Timed out". Other times "Canceled". Other times it displays
"Arrived". So what is it that a controller does to the ATC computer to
cause it to go into an "Arrived" state?

Thanks,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ

Matthew S. Whiting wrote:
> Newps wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Matthew S. Whiting wrote:
>>
>>> Does the ATC controller then intiate SAR if the pilot hasn't called
>>> in within 30 minutes or so?
>>
>>
>>
>> You are never out of contact with ATC, how could this be a factor.
>
>
> There are lots of airports here in northern PA where you can't talk to
> the controller on the ground after landing.

Well a few minutes ago we were talking about landing at towered
airports. My comments were directed at those circumstances. landing at
uncontrolled fields is a different matter.


>
>
>> I'm real nervous now if you are telling me
>>
>>> that it is up to the last controller to initiate SAR if a flight plan
>>> isn't closed by the pilot.

Yes, it is.


>
>> I always assumed some computer somewhere
>>
>>> kept track of open flight plans and automatically kicked something
>>> out if one was still open at some time past the ETA.

The computer does not keep track like you think. A human controller does.


>>
>>
>>
>> Not for IFR, just VFR.
>
>
> Interesting that a VFR flight plan is more automated than an IFR flight
> plan.

I didn't say that. There's a lot more automation with an IFR flight plan.

"John Clonts" > wrote in message
...
>
> Ok, the closest I can get to the ATC computers is what I see reported on
> fboweb flight tracking. (Thanks for the explanation of the routing codes
> you gave me before). Sometimes at the end of the flight it displays a
> status of "Timed out". Other times "Canceled". Other times it displays
> "Arrived". So what is it that a controller does to the ATC computer to
> cause it to go into an "Arrived" state?
>

Nothing. There is no "Arrived" function in NAS flight data processing. I
have no idea what the source for that is.

>>
there's still room for error here that could easily be
automated into oblivion
<<

Everything has room for error. I don't see any "room" that's more than any
other "room" for error elsewhere in the system. What do you see? What kind of
scenario can you imagine?

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> "Matthew S. Whiting" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>That's true, but there's still room for error here that could easily be
>>automated into oblivion.
>>
>
>
> What's the error there's room for and how would you automate it into
> oblivion?
>
>

The error potential is that a flight into a non-tower field could be
forgotten.

Automating it would simply pop up a message after 30 minutes if the
flight plan hasn't been closed via a call from the pilot after landing.


Matt

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> "Matthew S. Whiting" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Not always, see above. If you are flying into a towered airport, this
>>is true. Not all IFR flights end at towered airports. I typically
>>cancelled in the air when flying into N38 or 7N1, however, if the
>>weather was marginal or if the runway condition was unknown (winter), I
>>didn't want to cancel until I was on the ground. This required a phone
>>call. You are saying that if I didn't make this phone call and the last
>>controller I talked with forgot about me, I could be laying in a ditch
>>in the snow for hours???
>>
>
>
> Well, there's a strip in front of him showing that you were cleared for
> approach but hadn't yet cancelled IFR to remind him. What would you want to
> see done differently?
>
>

What happens to the strip when I close my flight plan? What happens to
it if I don't?


Matt

Newps wrote:
>
>
> Matthew S. Whiting wrote:

>> Interesting that a VFR flight plan is more automated than an IFR
>> flight plan.
>
>
> I didn't say that. There's a lot more automation with an IFR flight plan.

I was speaking relative to closing it and initiating SAR if needed.
Sounds like a VFR flight plan is more automated in that sense.


Matt

Teacherjh wrote:
> there's still room for error here that could easily be
> automated into oblivion
> <<
>
> Everything has room for error. I don't see any "room" that's more than any
> other "room" for error elsewhere in the system. What do you see? What kind of
> scenario can you imagine?
>
> Jose
>

I imagine a scenario where a human error (forgetfulness, which we all
experience) could allow a delayed SAR initiation, whereas a reminder
from the computer could prevent that. However, now that Steven
mentioned the flight strip still being there, I want to hear more about
how that works.



Matt

"Matthew S. Whiting" > wrote in message
...
>
> Automating it would simply pop up a message after 30 minutes if the
> flight plan hasn't been closed via a call from the pilot after landing.
>

So you'd create a system for the pilot to enter his cancellation directly
into the computer via telephone, and if that didn't happen after 30 minutes
the computer would initiate a search?

"Matthew S. Whiting" > wrote in message
...
>
> I was speaking relative to closing it and initiating SAR if needed.
> Sounds like a VFR flight plan is more automated in that sense.
>

How are VFR flight plans automated?

"Matthew S. Whiting" > wrote in message
...
>
> I imagine a scenario where a human error (forgetfulness, which we all
> experience) could allow a delayed SAR initiation, whereas a reminder
> from the computer could prevent that. However, now that Steven
> mentioned the flight strip still being there, I want to hear more about
> how that works.
>

There's not much more to tell. The strip is the controller's source of
information on any particular flight. The actions he takes with that flight
will be hand written on the strip. As long as the controller has
responsibility for a flight he will have a strip on it, he discards it when
the aircraft leaves his airspace or cancels. If an aircraft is cleared for
an approach to an untowered field but fails to cancel, the strip will remain
there.

"Matthew S. Whiting" > wrote in message
...
>
> What happens to the strip when I close my flight plan?
>

It goes into the discard pile.


>
> What happens to it if I don't?
>

It stays in front of the controller until he acts upon it.

Just this morning I cleared an Aztec for the VOR/DME RWY 35 approach at MTW,
an untowered field. About three miles outside of the FAF I told the
aircraft, "report canceling IFR on this frequency, change to advisory
frequency approved, I have no other targets in the Manitowoc area." I last
observed his target about three miles south of the field. The RTR is
located on the field and there are no pavement areas accessible by aircraft
where communications presents a problem, so all the guy had to do to cancel
was switch back to approach frequency, he didn't have to scramble to find a
working telephone somewhere or anything like that. Ten minutes after last
observing his target he still had not cancelled, so I started looking for
him. But I didn't follow any of the book procedures for overdue aircraft, I
just called the FBO. I identified myself and told the receptionist I was
looking for an aircraft that hadn't cancelled IFR. Before I could describe
the airplane to her, she said, "Is it Aztec N1234A? He's here on the ramp."
[name changed to protect the forgetful] I thanked her and pitched the strip
into the discard pile. Had it been after hours for the FBO I would have
called the local constabulary and they would have sent a car out to see if
the airplane was there.

Now, how would you automate that?

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote:
> I just called the FBO.

Just out of curiosity, can you make a PSTN (Public Switched Telephone
Network) call from your radar station? Are the calls recorded?

I've heard that you're not allowed to accept IFR cancellations which are
relayed via other aircraft. Is this correct? If so, how can you do so
based on a phone call with some desk jockey at an FBO?

On a marginally related topic, my club had a talk recently about
in-flight medical emergencies. Let's say you were working me and I
said, "I've got a medical emergency, landing Podunk Municipal, get an
ambulance to meet me there" and then disappeared from the frequency.
What would you do? Do you have the resources/authority to get a medical
team dispatched to Podunk?

Matthew S. Whiting wrote:

> What happens to the strip when I close my flight plan? What happens to
> it if I don't?



And just to get you more jazzed up the FAA is building us a new tower
here in Billings. When we move in in a couple of years paper strips
will be a thing of the past. It will all be touch screens and cursors.
The whole agency is going down that path.

Roy Smith wrote:



> Just out of curiosity, can you make a PSTN (Public Switched Telephone
> Network) call from your radar station? Are the calls recorded?

We have access to outside lines from the ETVS, which is the panel in
front of the controller that controls all his communications. It is a
touch screen panel. For example when I want to call the FBO on the
field I simply hit the preprogrammed button labeled "Eddy" and the phone
dials Edwards Jet Center on the field. All the other important numbers
are thusly programmed. These lines are all recorded. We also have a
regular telephone that any office would have with access to the same
phone lines, just not recorded.


>
> I've heard that you're not allowed to accept IFR cancellations which are
> relayed via other aircraft. Is this correct?

No.


If so, how can you do so
> based on a phone call with some desk jockey at an FBO?

Any call saying an aircraft has landed is good enough, recorded or not.


>
> On a marginally related topic, my club had a talk recently about
> in-flight medical emergencies. Let's say you were working me and I
> said, "I've got a medical emergency, landing Podunk Municipal, get an
> ambulance to meet me there" and then disappeared from the frequency.
> What would you do?

Get an ambulance over there.


Do you have the resources/authority to get a medical
> team dispatched to Podunk?

Yep, happens frequently. We also call in a lot of forest and grass
fires in the summer and early fall. I almost had to go to court because
I saw a fight in the parking lot at the airport and they were trying to
charge the wrong guy with assault.

"Roy Smith" > wrote in message
...
>
> Just out of curiosity, can you make a PSTN (Public Switched Telephone
> Network) call from your radar station?
>

Yup.


>
> Are the calls recorded?
>

Yup.


>
> I've heard that you're not allowed to accept IFR cancellations which are
> relayed via other aircraft. Is this correct?
>

Nope.


>
> On a marginally related topic, my club had a talk recently about
> in-flight medical emergencies. Let's say you were working me and I
> said, "I've got a medical emergency, landing Podunk Municipal, get an
> ambulance to meet me there" and then disappeared from the frequency.
> What would you do?
>

I'd relay the request to somebody at Podunk; the tower, FBO, sherriff, etc.


>
> Do you have the resources/authority to get a medical
> team dispatched to Podunk?
>

Well, anybody can call 911.

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> "Matthew S. Whiting" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Automating it would simply pop up a message after 30 minutes if the
>>flight plan hasn't been closed via a call from the pilot after landing.
>>
>
>
> So you'd create a system for the pilot to enter his cancellation directly
> into the computer via telephone, and if that didn't happen after 30 minutes
> the computer would initiate a search?

No. I assume the ATC computers know which airports are non-tower. For
non-tower airports, I'd require the controller or FSS specialist to
close the flight plan when the pilot radios or calls in. For airports
with towers, I wouldn't change a thing.


Matt

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> "Matthew S. Whiting" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>I was speaking relative to closing it and initiating SAR if needed.
>>Sounds like a VFR flight plan is more automated in that sense.
>>
>
>
> How are VFR flight plans automated?
>
>

I thought Newps said that a VFR flight plan has a means for automatic
notification of someone if it isn't closed within the tolerance. I
personally don't have a clue how these are handled.


Matt

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> "Matthew S. Whiting" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>I imagine a scenario where a human error (forgetfulness, which we all
>>experience) could allow a delayed SAR initiation, whereas a reminder
>>from the computer could prevent that. However, now that Steven
>>mentioned the flight strip still being there, I want to hear more about
>>how that works.
>>
>
>
> There's not much more to tell. The strip is the controller's source of
> information on any particular flight. The actions he takes with that flight
> will be hand written on the strip. As long as the controller has
> responsibility for a flight he will have a strip on it, he discards it when
> the aircraft leaves his airspace or cancels. If an aircraft is cleared for
> an approach to an untowered field but fails to cancel, the strip will remain
> there.
>
>

What does the controller do with the strip when an airplane lands at a
tower equipped airport? If he/she discards the strip manually, then
that is taking an action. It isn't an action to close the flight plan,
but nonetheless, it is an action taken upon completion of the flight.
It wasn't clear earlier in the thread that ANYTHING was done upon
completion of an IFR flight into a tower equipped airport or a non-tower
airport for that matter.


Matt

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> "Matthew S. Whiting" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>What happens to the strip when I close my flight plan?
>>
>
>
> It goes into the discard pile.

So an action is taken. That is all I was asking about from the start.


>>What happens to it if I don't?
>>
>
>
> It stays in front of the controller until he acts upon it.
>
> Just this morning I cleared an Aztec for the VOR/DME RWY 35 approach at MTW,
> an untowered field. About three miles outside of the FAF I told the
> aircraft, "report canceling IFR on this frequency, change to advisory
> frequency approved, I have no other targets in the Manitowoc area." I last
> observed his target about three miles south of the field. The RTR is
> located on the field and there are no pavement areas accessible by aircraft
> where communications presents a problem, so all the guy had to do to cancel
> was switch back to approach frequency, he didn't have to scramble to find a
> working telephone somewhere or anything like that. Ten minutes after last
> observing his target he still had not cancelled, so I started looking for
> him. But I didn't follow any of the book procedures for overdue aircraft, I
> just called the FBO. I identified myself and told the receptionist I was
> looking for an aircraft that hadn't cancelled IFR. Before I could describe
> the airplane to her, she said, "Is it Aztec N1234A? He's here on the ramp."
> [name changed to protect the forgetful] I thanked her and pitched the strip
> into the discard pile. Had it been after hours for the FBO I would have
> called the local constabulary and they would have sent a car out to see if
> the airplane was there.
>
> Now, how would you automate that?

As long as the strip is there and must be disposed of manually, then I
wouldn't automate it. It sounded from earlier responses you made that
NOTHING was done at the termination of an IFR flight. It is clear that
something is done, and that something is discarding the strip. Works
for me. It was the thought that no action was taken that had me concerned.


Matt

Newps wrote:
>
>
> Matthew S. Whiting wrote:
>
>> What happens to the strip when I close my flight plan? What happens
>> to it if I don't?
>
>
>
>
> And just to get you more jazzed up the FAA is building us a new tower
> here in Billings. When we move in in a couple of years paper strips
> will be a thing of the past. It will all be touch screens and cursors.
> The whole agency is going down that path.
>

I don't care if it is paper or touch screen. I've been installing touch
screens since 1983 so I'm rather fond of them! As long as some action
is required at the completion of an IFR flight into a non-tower field,
be it pitching a piece of paper or touching a screen to delete an entry,
I'm a happy camper.


Matt

"Matthew S. Whiting" > wrote in message
...
>
> No. I assume the ATC computers know which airports are non-tower.
>

Why does that make a difference?


>
> For non-tower airports, I'd require the controller or FSS specialist to
> close the flight plan when the pilot radios or calls in.
>

That's what's being done now. You said that was inadequate.

"Matthew S. Whiting" > wrote in message
...
>
> I thought Newps said that a VFR flight plan has a means for automatic
> notification of someone if it isn't closed within the tolerance. I
> personally don't have a clue how these are handled.
>

Newps is not a reliable information source.

"Matthew S. Whiting" > wrote in message
...
>
> What does the controller do with the strip when an airplane lands at a
> tower equipped airport?
>

If it's a satellite facility, he'll drop the strip in the discard pile. If
it's a tower with a colocated radar approach the tower probably won't have a
strip at all. The last strip is printed in the TRACON and the tower gets
it's information from the BRITE.


>
> If he/she discards the strip manually, then
> that is taking an action. It isn't an action to close the flight plan,
> but nonetheless, it is an action taken upon completion of the flight.
>

So what action does close the flight plan at a towered field then?


>
> It wasn't clear earlier in the thread that ANYTHING was done upon
> completion of an IFR flight into a tower equipped airport or a non-tower
> airport for that matter.
>

Well, I explained what was done, you apparently don't buy it. That's okay
with me.

Matthew S. Whiting wrote:

> What does the controller do with the strip when an airplane lands at a
> tower equipped airport?

Files it.


If he/she discards the strip manually, then
> that is taking an action.

It's manually filed into the little slot which is cleaned out each hour
so the traffic count can be recorded.

Matthew S. Whiting wrote:


> I thought Newps said that a VFR flight plan has a means for automatic
> notification of someone if it isn't closed within the tolerance.

Yes, there is. Once you open your VFR flight plan the guy at FSS will
get a message on a screen that says N123 is xx minutes overdue. Each
region sets its own parameters as to when that notification comes, never
more than 30 minutes after the filed time.

"Matthew S. Whiting" > wrote in message
...
>
> So an action is taken. That is all I was asking about from the start.
>

All the strips end up in the discard pile; arrivals, departures, and
overflights.


>
> As long as the strip is there and must be disposed of manually, then I
> wouldn't automate it.
>

Were you under the impression that they wouls eventually get up and walk
away on their own?


>
> It sounded from earlier responses you made that
> NOTHING was done at the termination of an IFR flight. It is clear that
> something is done, and that something is discarding the strip. Works
> for me. It was the thought that no action was taken that had me
> concerned.
>

I see. You were under the impression that strips were retained forever,
eventually filling the facility and requiring construction of another.

"Matthew S. Whiting" > wrote in message
...
>
> I don't care if it is paper or touch screen. I've been installing touch
> screens since 1983 so I'm rather fond of them! As long as some action
> is required at the completion of an IFR flight into a non-tower field,
> be it pitching a piece of paper or touching a screen to delete an entry,
> I'm a happy camper.
>

A system error can also delete an entry on a screen, once paper strips are
printed they're pretty much foolproof.

>>
> As long as the strip is there and must be disposed of manually, then I
> wouldn't automate it.

Were you under the impression that they wouls eventually get up and walk
away on their own?
<<

Actually that is not required for there to be "no action" taken on a
(hypothetical) strip at a (hypothetical) facility. If the strip were abandoned
(no action), and then the cleaning crew came and swept the place (action, but
not by the FAA), the strip would (as far as ATC is concerned) have gotten up
and walked away on its own. Were this the case, the problemes alluded to would
likely occur.

Things don't work that way. But giving paper the breath of life is not the
only way things might not work the way they do, so that problems that don't
occur would. <g>

Jose


--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> "Matthew S. Whiting" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>No. I assume the ATC computers know which airports are non-tower.
>>
>
>
> Why does that make a difference?
>
>
>
>>For non-tower airports, I'd require the controller or FSS specialist to
>>close the flight plan when the pilot radios or calls in.
>>
>
>
> That's what's being done now. You said that was inadequate.
>
>

The difference is I'd have the computer flag an alarm if this didn't
happen. Doesn't sound like that is the case now.


Matt

"Matthew S. Whiting" > wrote in message
...
>
> The difference is I'd have the computer flag an alarm if this didn't
> happen. Doesn't sound like that is the case now.
>

You'd shift responsibility from the controller to the computer. Why is that
better?

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> "Matthew S. Whiting" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>What does the controller do with the strip when an airplane lands at a
>>tower equipped airport?
>>
>
>
> If it's a satellite facility, he'll drop the strip in the discard pile. If
> it's a tower with a colocated radar approach the tower probably won't have a
> strip at all. The last strip is printed in the TRACON and the tower gets
> it's information from the BRITE.
>
>
>
>>If he/she discards the strip manually, then
>>that is taking an action. It isn't an action to close the flight plan,
>>but nonetheless, it is an action taken upon completion of the flight.
>>
>
>
> So what action does close the flight plan at a towered field then?

Beats me, I'm not a controller. From what you've said, doesn't sound
like anything does. Nothing needs to though when you can see the
airplane land or crash as the case may be.


>>It wasn't clear earlier in the thread that ANYTHING was done upon
>>completion of an IFR flight into a tower equipped airport or a non-tower
>>airport for that matter.
>>
>
>
> Well, I explained what was done, you apparently don't buy it. That's okay
> with me.

I never saw any comment about having a strip that is thrown away until
I'd commented several times about needing something as a reminder to
ensure the airplane had closed the flight plan.

I saw comments about nothing happening and nothing needing to happen,
but no explanation as to what actually was happening. I never said I
didn't buy having a strip that stays in front of the controller until
the controller manually disposes of it.


Matt

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> "Matthew S. Whiting" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>So an action is taken. That is all I was asking about from the start.
>>
>
>
> All the strips end up in the discard pile; arrivals, departures, and
> overflights.
>
>
>
>>As long as the strip is there and must be disposed of manually, then I
>>wouldn't automate it.
>>
>
>
> Were you under the impression that they wouls eventually get up and walk
> away on their own?

I'm not a controller and haven't visited an ATC facility in probably 20
years. I didn't assume that manual flight strips were still in use, but
knowing the gummint I should have figured that would still be the case.


>>It sounded from earlier responses you made that
>>NOTHING was done at the termination of an IFR flight. It is clear that
>>something is done, and that something is discarding the strip. Works
>>for me. It was the thought that no action was taken that had me
>>concerned.
>>
>
>
> I see. You were under the impression that strips were retained forever,
> eventually filling the facility and requiring construction of another.

No, see above. I assumed that technology had progressed at least a tiny
bit since I visited a tower in the late 70s. Obviously, a poor assumption.


Matt

"Matthew S. Whiting" > wrote in message
...
>
> Beats me, I'm not a controller.
>

Well, I am, and you apparently felt you were in a position to tell me I was
wrong.


>
> From what you've said, doesn't sound
> like anything does. Nothing needs to though when you can see the
> airplane land or crash as the case may be.
>

Yeah, I think I said something like that several messages ago.


>
> I never saw any comment about having a strip that is thrown away until
> I'd commented several times about needing something as a reminder to
> ensure the airplane had closed the flight plan.
>

Why did you assume there wasn't something as a reminder?


>
> I saw comments about nothing happening and nothing needing to happen, >
but no explanation as to what actually was happening. I never said I
> didn't buy having a strip that stays in front of the controller until
> the controller manually disposes of it.
>

Okay, so do you now understand that nothing happens and nothing needs to
happen?

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> "Matthew S. Whiting" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>The difference is I'd have the computer flag an alarm if this didn't
>>happen. Doesn't sound like that is the case now.
>>
>
>
> You'd shift responsibility from the controller to the computer. Why is that
> better?
>
>

I've worked for more than 20 years with both computers and people. The
computers are much more reliable at performing routine tasks. There is
simply no comparison. I prefer to have the controllers performing
functions that require higher mental skills.

I've automated many industrial processes that had formerly been operated
by humans. In every single case, the process was more stable and more
reliable when the humans weren't "in the loop."

Matt

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> "Matthew S. Whiting" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Beats me, I'm not a controller.
>>
>
>
> Well, I am, and you apparently felt you were in a position to tell me I was
> wrong.

Go back and read it again. I never said you were wrong. I said the
system had a flaw if it didn't have a means, beyond the memory of a
controller, to ensure that a pilot landing at a non-tower field on an
IFR flight plan closed his flight plan. Once I knew that flight strips
were still in use and in front of the controller until they removed them
(which provides the memory jogger I was after), I agreed that no further
automation was needed. This is an archaic system, but certainly one
that should work.


>>From what you've said, doesn't sound
>>like anything does. Nothing needs to though when you can see the
>>airplane land or crash as the case may be.
>>
>
>
> Yeah, I think I said something like that several messages ago.

But you didn't say why. Sorry, but I seldom accept "it is right because
I say so" as a viable answer without knowing the why.


>>I never saw any comment about having a strip that is thrown away until
>>I'd commented several times about needing something as a reminder to
>>ensure the airplane had closed the flight plan.
>>
>
>
> Why did you assume there wasn't something as a reminder?

Because there were replies that suggested that there was nothing.


>>I saw comments about nothing happening and nothing needing to happen, >
>
> but no explanation as to what actually was happening. I never said I
>
>>didn't buy having a strip that stays in front of the controller until
>>the controller manually disposes of it.
>>
>
>
> Okay, so do you now understand that nothing happens and nothing needs to
> happen?

No, I understand that something happens (a flight strip must me manually
removed from in front of the controller), and this something is
sufficient to ensure that an overdue IFR flight is detected in a
reasonable time frame. It was the insistence on your part that nothing
happened and nothing needed to happen that kept this thread going. This
is pretty disengenuous when you knew that something does happen. Then
again, I know from past experience that you love to argue over trivia...
:-)


Matt

"Matthew S. Whiting" > wrote in message
...
>
> I'm not a controller and haven't visited an ATC facility in probably 20
> years. I didn't assume that manual flight strips were still in use, but
> knowing the gummint I should have figured that would still be the case.
>
> No, see above. I assumed that technology had progressed at least a tiny >
bit since I visited a tower in the late 70s. Obviously, a poor assumption.
>

Yeah, paper strips have been with us a long time, but that doesn't mean
they're obsolete. If all the flight data is on a screen and the computer
goes down I lose all the flight data. If the flight data is printed on
paper strips and the computer goes down I still have the flight data on
paper strips.

"Matthew S. Whiting" > wrote in message
...
>
> I've worked for more than 20 years with both computers and people. The
> computers are much more reliable at performing routine tasks. There is
> simply no comparison. I prefer to have the controllers performing
> functions that require higher mental skills.
>
> I've automated many industrial processes that had formerly been operated
> by humans. In every single case, the process was more stable and more
> reliable when the humans weren't "in the loop."
>

Please explain how you'd automate the search.

"Matthew S. Whiting" > wrote in message
...
>
> Go back and read it again. I never said you were wrong.
>

Okay. I went back and read it again. I said no action is taken by the
controller to close a flight plan. You said if the controller discards the
strip manually, then that is taking an action.


>
> But you didn't say why. Sorry, but I seldom accept "it is right because
> I say so" as a viable answer without knowing the why.
>

But I did say why. Go back and read it again.


>
> Because there were replies that suggested that there was nothing.
>

Odd that I didn't see them.


>
> No, I understand that something happens (a flight strip must me manually
> removed from in front of the controller), and this something is
> sufficient to ensure that an overdue IFR flight is detected in a
> reasonable time frame.
>

That happens with departure and overflight strips as well.


>
> It was the insistence on your part that nothing
> happened and nothing needed to happen that kept this thread going.
>

Well, that's the way it is, but you're free to believe whatever you choose.


>
> This is pretty disengenuous when you knew that something does
> happen. Then again, I know from past experience that you love to
> argue over trivia...
> :-)
>

So how are IFR arrivals differentiated from IFR departures and overflights
if the strips are treated the same?

"Roy Smith" > wrote in message
...
> "Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote:
> > I just called the FBO.
>
> Just out of curiosity, can you make a PSTN (Public Switched Telephone
> Network) call from your radar station? Are the calls recorded?

For ARTCC's, we can't access a PSTN from the Sector (at least in my
facility). However, there is a PSTN in the ARTCC with dozens of commercial
phone lines and phones at each supervisor position in each Area. We have
access to literally hundreds of phone numbers, from law enforcement at our
airports to emergency services to FBO's to airline dispatch offices, ARINC
etc.

>
> I've heard that you're not allowed to accept IFR cancellations which are
> relayed via other aircraft. Is this correct?

This is not correct. We can.

> On a marginally related topic, my club had a talk recently about
> in-flight medical emergencies. Let's say you were working me and I
> said, "I've got a medical emergency, landing Podunk Municipal, get an
> ambulance to meet me there" and then disappeared from the frequency.
> What would you do? Do you have the resources/authority to get a medical
> team dispatched to Podunk?

Yep. In the ARTCC's, we keep an updated index file on computer of hundreds
of emergency contact phone numbers for the airspace we serve. Going in to
Podunk, we would look up the emergency services for Podunk, place an
official sounding, recorded, urgent emergency call from FAA, and do our best
to get an ambulance to you if it was possible.

In Center airspace out in the boonies, you might have to make do with
whatever showed up at the airport though. One of the fun extra-duty jobs
I've had was verifying the Center's fire and emergency services numbers a
few years ago (something we do every year as part of facility SOP). I
called the official emergency number for Gilmer County Airport up in the
Blue Ridge of North Georgia.

"Yaller? Airport."

"Hello, this is the FAA Atlanta Air Traffic Control Center calling to verify
that this phone number is for emergency services at 49A."

"Say whut?"

"Err, this is the Federal Aviation Administration calling. Is this Gilmer
County Airport?"

"Weel yes sah, it's Gilma Counee, sheer is..."

"Err, could I speak with the airfield emergency services dispatcher?"

"He ain't here- he's out on the ambulance."

"How about the airport manager? I'm trying to verify that this is still a
good aircraft emergency contact number."

"Dang it, hold on..." He put down the phone, went to a door and yelled:
"Hey Jed! JED! Hey! It the Fed's! HEY JED DAMMIT! CLIMB ON DOWN AN'
COME 'ERE! PHONE CALL FROM THE FFA!"

"Sorry about that mister, he was out on the ambulance mowing the airport..."

Here's your sign....

Chip, ZTL

"Matthew S. Whiting" > wrote in message
...
[snipped]

> I'm not a controller and haven't visited an ATC facility in probably 20
> years. I didn't assume that manual flight strips were still in use, but
> knowing the gummint I should have figured that would still be the case.

Strips are far far far far far superior to *ANY* automated data for
reliability in my opinion. They don't break, they aren't broken, and they
don't need to be replaced. Like paper cheques, strips aren't obsolete.

>
>
> >>It sounded from earlier responses you made that
> >>NOTHING was done at the termination of an IFR flight. It is clear that
> >>something is done, and that something is discarding the strip. Works
> >>for me. It was the thought that no action was taken that had me
> >>concerned.
> >>
> >
> >
> > I see. You were under the impression that strips were retained forever,
> > eventually filling the facility and requiring construction of another.
>
> No, see above. I assumed that technology had progressed at least a tiny
> bit since I visited a tower in the late 70s. Obviously, a poor
assumption.

Technology for technology's sake isn't always progress IMO. Especially not
in the air safety business.

Chip, ZTL

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> "Matthew S. Whiting" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>I've worked for more than 20 years with both computers and people. The
>>computers are much more reliable at performing routine tasks. There is
>>simply no comparison. I prefer to have the controllers performing
>>functions that require higher mental skills.
>>
>>I've automated many industrial processes that had formerly been operated
>>by humans. In every single case, the process was more stable and more
>>reliable when the humans weren't "in the loop."
>>
>
>
> Please explain how you'd automate the search.

I'd automate the initiation of the search. Never said I'd automate the
search.

Chip Jones wrote:
> "Matthew S. Whiting" > wrote in message
> ...
> [snipped]
>
>
>>I'm not a controller and haven't visited an ATC facility in probably 20
>>years. I didn't assume that manual flight strips were still in use, but
>>knowing the gummint I should have figured that would still be the case.
>
>
> Strips are far far far far far superior to *ANY* automated data for
> reliability in my opinion. They don't break, they aren't broken, and they
> don't need to be replaced. Like paper cheques, strips aren't obsolete.

Paper cheques are rapidly becoming obsolete. Credit and Debit cards
have already overtaken checks based on some stats I saw just a few weeks
ago and the rate of change is pretty high with checks dropping rapidly.
Another 10-20 years and checks will be all but gone.

Paper strips are only as reliable as the computer and printer that print
them ...
which are automated systems already.



>>>>It sounded from earlier responses you made that
>>>>NOTHING was done at the termination of an IFR flight. It is clear that
>>>>something is done, and that something is discarding the strip. Works
>>>>for me. It was the thought that no action was taken that had me
>>>>concerned.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>I see. You were under the impression that strips were retained forever,
>>>eventually filling the facility and requiring construction of another.
>>
>>No, see above. I assumed that technology had progressed at least a tiny
>>bit since I visited a tower in the late 70s. Obviously, a poor
>
> assumption.
>
> Technology for technology's sake isn't always progress IMO. Especially not
> in the air safety business.

Never suggested technology for technology's sake. Do you consider all
of the automation that has already happened in avionics and ATC to be
technology for technology's sake?


Matt

"Matthew S. Whiting" > wrote in message
...
> Chip Jones wrote:
> > "Matthew S. Whiting" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > [snipped]
>
> Paper strips are only as reliable as the computer and printer that print
> them ...
> which are automated systems already.

Not true. Paper strips are designed to be *written on* by human beings.
They reflect control data written in pencil or pen using control symbology
as a form of communication. That control data is not the product of an
automated system. Rather it is the product of the human air traffic
controller. A good controller can write and talk at the same time far
faster and with far more accuracy than he/she can input data into a computer
via an interface like a key board. I can literally write as fast and
accurately as I can think and talk. After years of practice inputting data,
I am still far more prone to error using a keyboard to attempt to do the
same thing. Furthermore, strips serve air safety in other vital ways, such
as serving as memory aids (Did I switch him? Is he still on a vector? Did
I pass that speed? Did he request a reroute? Is he pointed out to the
adjacent facility? Is WAFDOF approved down the line? Am I even talking to
this airplane?), conflict probes (Do I have any other guys at FL330?) etc.
In my facility, back when we actually had staffing, two or three proficient
controllers could work a balls-to-the-wall enroute sector full of high
complexity and volume without ever uttering a single word to one another,
using strips and detailed stripmarking as the sole form of safe and
effective team coordination. It worked because each controller would work
and write on the strip, cock the strip out of the bay on piority items etc.

Add to that the fact that strips serve as fail safes in enroute automated
environments because *they never break*. Strips can be written, used and
processed by *hand*. You don't even need a computer, and you don't even
need a printer... I'd argue that strips are *more* reliable than the
computer and printers that print them.


[snipped]
> >
> > Technology for technology's sake isn't always progress IMO. Especially
not
> > in the air safety business.
>
> Never suggested technology for technology's sake. Do you consider all
> of the automation that has already happened in avionics and ATC to be
> technology for technology's sake?

Of course I don't. I can't speak for avionics, but I can tell you that in
the enroute ATC world, technology for technology's sake sometimes seems to
be the case. For example, we have an automated POS called URET (Stands for
User Requested Evaluation Tool). In this case the "User" who made the
request wasn't the enroute air traffic controller, but rather the airline
industry looking for more direct routings and believing that a good conflict
probe would facilitate their desire. URET was sold to FAA as a conflict
probe/electronic strip replacement tool. The probe doesn't work. It's
crap. Human ATC's don't need a conflict probe anyway-they have eyes, radar
and paper strips. The automated flight plan processor is a **** poor
substitute for the strips it is unsuccessfully trying to replace. It is
completely unsuited to non-radar operations. It requires heads-down time
for data input. URET equipped facilities commit operational deviations
*daily* using automation to replace simple strip functions such as mandatory
coordination with the next sector. They do this because the automation that
they have been forced to use is inferior to the paper strip it has
replaced., and they forget things because they aren't processing strips.
They don't get dinged because controllers don't turn each other in for
deviations unless it is in self-defense. You don't throw rocks in a glass
house in ATC-World. By the way, paper strips are still mandated to be
printed in URET facilities "just in case" the automation goes belly up. So
far, it has gone belly up in ZID, ZJX and ZKC that I know of. Strips just
keep swimming....


Chip, ZTL

"Matthew S. Whiting" > wrote in message
...
>
> I'd automate the initiation of the search. Never said I'd automate the
> search.
>

Please explain how you'd automate the initiation of the search.

"Matthew S. Whiting" > wrote in message
...
>
> Paper strips are only as reliable as the computer and printer that print
> them ...
> which are automated systems already.
>

Right. When the computer goes down the print fades right off the strip.

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "Matthew S. Whiting" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I saw comments about nothing happening and nothing needing to happen, >
> but no explanation as to what actually was happening. I never said I
> > didn't buy having a strip that stays in front of the controller until
> > the controller manually disposes of it.
> >
>
> Okay, so do you now understand that nothing happens and nothing needs to
> happen?

In addition, I thought we understood that at some time (presumably after an
appropriate timeout), some FAA computer decides to delete the flight without
human intervention. I just wanted to be reassured that is an exception to
the the "nothing happens". Otherwise I suppose you'd quickly run out of
available squawk codes and eventually memory space.

-- David Brooks

"David Brooks" > wrote in message
...
>
> In addition, I thought we understood that at some time (presumably
> after an appropriate timeout), some FAA computer decides to delete
> the flight without human intervention. I just wanted to be reassured
> that is an exception to the the "nothing happens". Otherwise I
> suppose you'd quickly run out of available squawk codes and
> eventually memory space.
>

Yes, the flight plan is deleted from the computer without any human action.
Understand that this happens at the end of the line for any particular
flight, there's just no reason to retain the information.

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> "Matthew S. Whiting" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Paper strips are only as reliable as the computer and printer that print
>>them ...
>>which are automated systems already.
>>
>
>
> Right. When the computer goes down the print fades right off the strip.
>
>

You don't write yours by hand like KP and Chip? :-)

Matt

Do people really use composite flight plans? I have never done one. I
usually file 2 flight plans. Or more likely just get flight following until
I pick up the IFR.



jerry

"Jay Somerset" > wrote in message
...
> Taking a different track, so i changed the thread/subject line...
>
> If you are on a composite flight plan (VFR, then IFR) who is responsible
for
> closing the VFR portion of the plan? If the VFR plan is not closed (with
> FSS if a true VFR plan) then SAR will be initiated if they cannot get hold
> of you within an hour or two.
>
> How does this work with a composite flight plan?

"Matthew S. Whiting" > wrote in message
...
>
> You don't write yours by hand like KP and Chip? :-)
>

Some. Mostly I write on those provided by the computer.

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> "Matthew S. Whiting" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>You don't write yours by hand like KP and Chip? :-)
>>
>
>
> Some. Mostly I write on those provided by the computer.
>
>

Living pretty dangerously relying on new fangled technology like
computers and printers.


Matt